Universal Basic Income

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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:46 pm

"Steel workers" aopt "Iron workers" might depend on region. But, a "steel" worker when I was on the job was technically a "lather" or "lath man." Those are the guys who wire up the steel rebar that binds the concrete. The confusion is that "iron workers" work steel, not iron. Those are foundrymen, who might also be called "steel men" where they work.

By "men of steel," I meant that they are physically "hard" men from their work.

Image
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http ... 1a.jpg&f=1
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:48 pm

Steve James wrote:
Here's the difference.
Image

Versus back in the day
Image

We were the last generation allowed to "ride the ball" to make connections with spud wrenches. Btw, I worked on bridges and that work was dominated by Iroquois and Norwegians. Still today, the trades are often kept in families.


these two photos scare the crap out of me.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:27 am

Back on the UBI, what is the difference between giving everyone 12k stipend and giving everyone 12k tax reduction?

I guess one difference is at the lowest tax amounts, I don't really benefit. If I only owe $3000, and now I owe nothing, I'm theoretically missing out on an extra 9k. How large this affected group is seems based on the assumption that if a huge number of good jobs are eliminated, then if I'm in this group, I can't get as high a paying job, then either I don't pay taxes and so saving on taxes doesn't help me, or I am now in a far lower tax bracket, so like in the above 3k example, I'm missing out on this tax reduction benefit.

Vs if everyone is given the 12k, that helps us start to string together the gigs. If it works out, I will hopefully end up making more and paying more taxes back into the system.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:18 am

everything wrote:Back on the UBI, what is the difference between giving everyone 12k stipend and giving everyone 12k tax reduction?

I guess one difference is at the lowest tax amounts, I don't really benefit. If I only owe $3000, and now I owe nothing, I'm theoretically missing out on an extra 9k. How large this affected group is seems based on the assumption that if a huge number of good jobs are eliminated, then if I'm in this group, I can't get as high a paying job, then either I don't pay taxes and so saving on taxes doesn't help me, or I am now in a far lower tax bracket, so like in the above 3k example, I'm missing out on this tax reduction benefit.

Vs if everyone is given the 12k, that helps us start to string together the gigs. If it works out, I will hopefully end up making more and paying more taxes back into the system.



Why wait for the government to do it why don't you start giving money away to those who feel in need to help them.

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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:55 am

I think there are those super rich who do just that, most notably the Gates Foundation working on two things:

1. eliminating certain diseases in the developing world (which will help with poverty)
2. helping education in the USA. right or wrong, helpful or not, this foundation is behind Common Core.

of course the government plays a far larger role in wealth redistribution (e.g., via taxes). with automation/offshoring, there has been massive improvement in productivity, and of course the wealthiest have benefited the most (it's far more efficient for money to make more money than for labor to do so). it's a different distribution now than when there was a larger middle class. that changes the debates/decisions about how does the government do this redistribution (including if we want to say it should do absolutely nothing, but it's not going to go away or do nothing for better or worse so let's take that out of scope for now) in the most effective way, both for more people and for society as a whole. not sure anyone says someone like Bill Gates doesn't deserve to be super wealthy. if there is any rationality underneath the policy debates, that's what's probably there if we were trying to explain this as econ/polisci 101 kind of thing to students (I'm guessing).

of course we know politicians' campaigns are funded by super PACs with various vested interests. at the same time we know government plays a role in "helping the people" and not just via making corporations rich. nothing wrong with getting rich, but what happens if the 1% go from 50% of the wealth to 99%? do we mainly want government to speed that process up? balance things? how? how not?
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Michael on Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:57 am

it's far more efficient for money to make more money than for labor to do so

Value only comes from labor. Money is supposed to be a symbol for value. Making money from money? Where's the value? Stolen from labor.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:08 pm

true. if you happen to own a lot of stock, its value (which is indeed from a construct of money) ultimately comes from labor.

that labor can be reduced using "robots" or cheaper offshore labor. but as a stockholder you may benefit quite a lot from that improved labor productivity.

there is one argument that says (maybe this is right, maybe it is wrong) that as rich people (let's just say we on rsf are 1%), we need consumers of the product our automated factories make. well we eliminated all those jobs, so where do we get these consumers? are they just the children of the 1%? that isn't a lot of consumers. so at some point, we don't have those consumers and that hurts our business. Of course it could also very well be that the Invisible Hand corrects that (via Uber or whatnot). Nobody really knows. In one sense, we can say it's stupid to talk about it. In another sense, either as a future laborer or investor, it's very smart to try to understand it (so you can get a job or you can make a big return on your investments). Some of this is very concrete, not abstract.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Michael on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:30 pm

Not really sure I would say nobody knows. There are previous historical examples of what happens to a place where labor was consumed by usury. There are market collapses that are sometimes absorbed by larger economic systems, such as the Great Depression, 2008 financial crisis, the tulip collapse in Amsterdam, etc., and some examples of cities that had industry, but whose laborers were ground into dust by usurers whose concentrated wealth turned those cities into sort of living museums with no middle class. Sorry, I can't get terribly specific or detailed, but my understanding is that this happened to Florence, Italy, which had a thriving textile industry dependent on a working class, both of which essentially disappeared, leaving behind only the long-lasting monuments to wealth, but not many people. This is from light googling. Perhaps Venice as well. Going to get a book on this today.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:48 pm

Oh cool, please post more about these previous similar events when you can. I don't know how much reading about them I'll do this weekend, but I wonder what happened to those people after the tulip bubble and so on.

One kind of response to these kinds of uncertainties is the "FIRE" movement (financial independence, retire early) - probably coming from people who saw massive upheaval in their lives due to some big change in their parents' jobs/income/wealth. One rule of thumb they have is to save 50% of your salary for retirement. Then when they retire early, they follow a 4% guideline (living on 4% of what they saved). Critics say that is naive and doesn't account for lifespans and inflation. There is an "own everything, use nothing" philosophy as well. For example, if you own a car, rent it out and never use it yourself. If you own a big house, stay in one room and rent out the other ones. And so on.

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/201811 ... ades-early
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:12 pm

One rule of thumb they have is to save 50% of your salary for retirement. Then when they retire early, they follow a 4% guideline (living on 4% of what they saved). Critics say that is naive and doesn't account for lifespans and inflation.


Save 50% :). I wouldn't say it's naive, but it's not really practical unless you make twice as much as you need. Besides, putting that money into a savings account won't give anyone a decent return. You'll want to invest in something with a reasonably high return --like some diversified fund. If your employer has a retirement plan, sign up for pre-tax withdrawals, especially if your employer matches your contribution. If not, find a decent one for yourself. Either way, my strategy has always been to "tithe" myself. Iow, I started by having them take 10% of my salary; eventually, I took it up to 20%.

The ultimate question is how much you think you will need. If you're making X now, and are struggling. How are you going to retire? If it's just social security, will that be enough to pay the bills. So, whatever you do, have a figure to aim at. Such as, I want to have 75% of what I made while working. Then, if you have to, you can do something part time on the side.

Shucks, if you can invest 50% of your paycheck for 30 years, you'll probably be a millionaire. Compound interest is a monstah.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:42 pm

very true. that's why money is more efficient at making money.

I can't speak for the FIRE folks. I suppose they'd say a lot of people can save way more through very consciously maintaining their frugal lifestyle. being in the can't retire yet bucket, some of these ideas can definitely be done, just not at that extreme level.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:10 am

You know Alaskans used to get 1K stipend based on the profits from oil and leasing reserves. They haven't received it for the last 3 years for various reasons. Anyway, my point is that they received their share of the state's "profit." The stipend was given to residents, not just to oil workers. So, if the nation makes a "profit," why not share it with "the citizens"? People argued that America was a business. Ok, consider us stockholders who are waiting for our returns. :)
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Michael on Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:19 am

So, if the nation makes a "profit," why not share it with "the citizens"? People argued that America was a business. Ok, consider us stockholders who are waiting for our returns. :)

That would be nice, but of course things don't work that way. The profit generation for the stipend in Alaska does not originate with the state, but with some oil companies. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but that's just how it is.

The United States (and most of the world) has a monetary system that generates profits by using the tool of money to steal value from labor, ie. it is usurious and therefore immoral. This usury exists on every level and creates constant pressure on the entire society to grind itself to dust in search of value that can be translated to money and drawn away from laborers as interest profit to people who do not labor in a productive sense, but who are very active, almost restless in their pursuit of profit and power.

It does not have to be this way. Money is simply a very useful tool and can be created, distributed, and controlled in ways that are moral and productive for all. Our monetary system (Federal Reserve Act 1913) and income tax (16th amendment 1913) were established at the same time, just a little more than a century ago. These could be changed and wealth retained by the laborers who create value that is now stolen by an immoral system.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:43 pm

The United States (and most of the world) has a monetary system that generates profits by using the tool of money to steal value from labor, ie. it is usurious and therefore immoral.


Profits?

How do those countries fund the cost of maintaining the conditions that allow those in business
and others who provide the labor for business to do so in an environment that allows for it?

These could be changed and wealth retained by the laborers who create value that is now stolen by an immoral system.


stolen, immoral system )

Feel free to point to another system as an example
or suggest ways to address the immorality, and refund what was stolen
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:54 pm

One of the main ways is through income tax.
In 2015, total federal revenues in fiscal year 2015 are expected to be $3.18 trillion.2 These revenues come from three major sources:

Income taxes paid by individuals: $1.48 trillion, or 47% of all tax revenues.

Payroll taxes paid jointly by workers and employers: $1.07 trillion, 34% of all tax revenues.

Corporate income taxes paid by businesses: $341.7 billion, or 11% of all tax revenues.

There are also a handful of other types of taxes, like customs duties and excise taxes that make up much smaller portions of federal revenue.


So we can see that much of the "profit" is directly tied to people having jobs.

If people are less employed, revenue will drop.

Again, as an investor in companies or in government, we need consumers and to have consumers, they need good jobs.
Last edited by everything on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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