Universal Basic Income

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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:37 am

People use statistics to make any claim they want. You're saying that immigrants are taking away jobs when there's 96% employment. Then you provide estimates in the tens of millions, which could very well be true. However, the result is still 96% employment.

You're saying that immigrants drive wages down. If they do, it's because employers use them as leverage against unorganized citizen laborers. I remember in the 70s when I was a union carpenter. Trump and other real estate developers hired West Indian carpenters (joiners) to do the "rehab" and renovation work in the Bronx and other boroughs. The immigrant carpenters were paid exactly one half union scale. Great for developers, but it didn't lower union wages. What happened was that the union business agent for the carpenter's union (Willie Nordstrom) was shot dead in front of his home (in Throggs Neck, Bx). Did I blame the West Indians? No.

Don't try to persuade me that "immigrants' are a negative to this country's economy. I say "look how well we're doing with them." Clearly, they are a boon to every industry in which they are used --to the people who profit from those industries. Which businesses are immigrants harming? In fact, as Trump said, Americans buy/depend on products (from food to sneakers to shirts) that come from the places from which the immigrants come: The places where they make as much in a year as they might make in a week here.

My solution would be to ensure livable wages for all citizens first. Period. That should be possible for at least 90% of the 96% employed. It would probably cost less than ICE enforcement raids and imprisoning people who, let's face it, may just try to get in again no matter what is done. Of course, providing for citizens is the subject of this thread, and eliminating all immigrants from the equation doesn't change the positions of those who are against UBI. The immigrants distract attention from fixable problems that might reduce profits. However, if that's even suggested, people who depend on making money will get bearish and the market will stall. Then, it'll be said that higher wages, health care, etc., are bad for the economy or that the economy can' support it.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Michael on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:10 am

I agree there's no need to blame immigrant workers, but there are negatives. I think I get what you're saying, though. Is it that immigrant workers grow the economy overall so there is a net job increase?

DeBlasio and Cali Gov. Newsome say unlimited free health care for everyone, including illegal aliens. In terms of economics, is it possible to do this? For example, shouldn't priority first be given to citizens? Would there not be a very quickly increasing number of illegal immigrants incentivized to come? Is there a limitation on health care resources that would be impacted by the continually arriving illegal immigrants?

Anyway, I enjoyed what you posted very much.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 am

Like I said, immigrants are a convenient distraction that affects very few jobs that citizens want. The issue is how citizen workers are treated. Fix that, with 4% unemployment, and things would be better for citizens, regardless of the economy. Sure, it costs money, but if we say it can't be done, don't blame someone else for being screwed over.

I was talking to a guy the other day who was complaining that the state provided Narcan to combat drug overdoses, but he had to pay $750 for his insulin. I felt sorry, but I thought the real complaint was that the drug companies charged so much for insulin, not that another drug was free. Actually, the state was buying the drug because the state's "people" were dying.

Ah, but they were drug addicts who were choosing the situation. True. Ah, but, if Narcan wasn't free, the drug company wouldn't lower the price of insulin anyway. "All lives matter."
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:54 am

.
My solution would be to ensure livable wages for all citizens first. Period.


What's a livable wage how would this be done.

In Hawaii for example the military came out with rent plus which coverd the cost of renting above and beyond what military housing would pay.

the result was that all the landlords immediately raised their rent to the highest bracket they thought they would receive.

The cost of education, student loans according to what I have read is due in large part to government loans.

In Taiwan they have a health care system, if you ever talk to those working within a system none of them like it.
Feeling that it's often abused by those feel they don't have to pay directly for it.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm

So it gets a bit abstract, but I think what we're trying to talk about is sort of like "price floors" and "price ceilings". These do not shift the actual supply and demand, but there will either be excess supply that isn't bought, or excess demand that isn't met. For example see this graph:
Image

In this hypothetical example, a town has set a max rent below the market equilibrium price. So there is more demand, but less supply (fewer landlords are willing/able to rent at this price). Some renters' demand will still go unmet (since there isn't enough supply). Also, theoretically, quality of the supply will also suffer.

This kind of dynamic should happen in our examples as well.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:41 am

Yep, immigrants or not, citizens won't get health care or anything else.
Even if they're gone, there are too many lazy people who'd take advantage. And, of course, it would cost too much and raise the deficit.
Well, cutting taxes has helped. Right. Just wait, soon we'll get ride of Obama and Medicare, and Social Security. We take care of our citizens.

Afa determining a "livable wage," it simply means determining the average cost of living in any particular area. We already determine the "cost of living" to base increases in things like veteran's benefits. Anyway, my point is that not taking care of citizens force them into competition and conflict with each other. If this weren't true, some people wouldn't be complaining about not having enough, whole others are complaining that they're giving too much.

People will argue that health care costs are too high, yet guaranteed health care is too expensive. So, lower health care costs; Can't because businesses have to make a profit. The situation depends on the competition. The only solution is making money: i.e., cheese, cheddar, cake, cash, moolah, samolians, greenbacks. They resolve all problems
Last edited by Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:21 am

.Anyway, my point is that not taking care of citizens force them into competition and conflict with each other. If this weren't true, some people wouldn't be complaining about not having enough, whole others are complaining that they're giving too much.


We seem to have a different viewpoint.

I view government as being able to set a stable environment so that people can achieve what they can achieve through their own efforts, not to provide them free stuff with no effort

The competition should be by the company's trying to gain the most subscribers to their systems by lowering cost, or better services at reduced rates. Even in Taiwan for example, better care is always available to those who can pay more.

One of the reasons that healthcare is so expensive in the US is that its run by monopolies in many areas.

If healthcare is a right as some seem to feel, why isn't housing and food. Should they also be guaranteed and provided for by the government.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:37 am

.
You're saying that immigrants drive wages down. If they do, it's because employers use them as leverage against unorganized citizen laborers. I remember in the 70s when I was a union carpenter. Trump and other real estate developers hired West Indian carpenters (joiners) to do the "rehab" and renovation work in the Bronx and other boroughs. The immigrant carpenters were paid exactly one half union scale. Great for developers, but it didn't lower union wages. What happened was that the union business agent for the carpenter's union (Willie Nordstrom) was shot dead in front of his home (in Throggs Neck, Bx). Did I blame the West Indians? No


Wasn't it the case that legal residents or citizens who happened to be from the West Indies sought those jobs were non-union workers and so could work for lower wages.

Or did those developers actively go out and seek those who were from the West Indies. Would they not take anyone able to do the job that was non-union.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:28 am

If healthcare is a right as some seem to feel, why isn't housing and food. Should they also be guaranteed and provided for by the government.


Hmm, well, it's not too far past July 4th. Remember the phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence.[1] The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect.


Iow, governments are created to protect those three things for its people. If the government doesn't, there's no need for it. (Oops, some would say to protect the rights (life, liberty, and happiness) of the corporations. At any rate, governments don't give those rights to people. "The Creator" (allegedly) gives it to them. But, people know the Declaration (and the principles upon which the nation was founded) about as well as they know the Bible.

Or did those developers actively go out and seek those who were from the West Indies. Would they not take anyone able to do the job that was non-union.


Yep. They sought them out, starting in the 60s. Before that, developers used immigrants from Italy to do stone work. Jamaican joiners were highly skilled because their labor market was strictly controlled. No, Jamaican and Trinidadian workers did not sneak in to the country to oust American workers. Like I said, union wages did not go down, and have not. Carpentry, however, is a skilled trade, and developers have to pay for those skills because of the union. At one time, the trade was handed down father to son. I know the history of this trade well. I was in it, and I went to Union Council of Carpenter's Technical Trade School as part of my training. Willie Nordstrom was my business agent. He was killed because he wanted the Jamaican workers to be paid union wages and receive union benefits.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:36 am

.
Yep. They sought them out, starting in the 60s. Before that, developers used immigrants from Italy to do stone work. Jamaican joiners were highly skilled because their labor market was strictly controlled. No, Jamaican and Trinidadian workers did not sneak in to the country to oust American workers. Like


Seems to be some confusion, between citizens or legal resident aliens, and illegal aliens.

All those no matter what country of origin who hold a American passport, or fulfill the requirements for being called a citizen are citizens, hence Americans.

All those who are resident aliens are not Americans but are legally able to work within the country.

Those who are neither legal resident aliens nor citizens are considered to be illegal aliens and should not be able to work in the country
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:29 am

Like I said, "illegal aliens" are a distraction from taking care of American citizens. Forget about "legal" aliens. Right now, the admin says there are too many applicants for visas. Anyway, you asked why developers looked for non-union labor. It didn't only apply to West Indians who were trained. They wanted to us companies from "right to work" states that didn't have unions. The point was always to reduce costs and increase profits, not take care of workers.

Btw, ever notice how many nurses are from the West Indies? or doctors and dentists named Patel? A license is necessary to obtain those jobs. I.e., there's a test. In the WI and other countries, there are national standardized tests required just to get into high school. The best students go where the most opportunities are. Same for carpenters. Same for everyone, except that everyone can't move. People have been doing that since ... people.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:44 am

Hey, our all-American Congress introduced a "Raise the Wage" bill. https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-con ... se-bill/15
Watch how many arguments are made for why it isn't good. I bet the first will be the old "Employers will just cut jobs if they have to pay more" meaning that it will eat into company profits.

Btw, for the past few years, farmers have complained of a lack of immigrant labor. https://www.thecalifornian.com/story/ne ... 554193001/

Have you noticed that the prices of fresh products has been going up.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby everything on Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:36 am

I think we do try to provide food aid. Which you're right, if healthcare is your right, health starts with food.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:31 am

He was killed because he wanted the Jamaican workers to be paid union wages and receive union benefit


Your sure this is why he was killed?

Off hand do you feel they be paid for something they didn't contribute to getting
nor pay into sustaining ?

An uncle of mine used to be an iron worker,,,,told me on most work sites
they didn't take kindly to non union workers trying to work on site...
no matter who they were or where they were from., legal or illegal.

the only thing that mattered was union or not along with
being able to do the work which they tested to see if one could
....for some they left after the first day.

The tech industry doesn't have have unions
probably never will. different industry.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:04 pm

0h Yah, I'm sure it was because of this issue. The killer was never caught. You can look up his murder. I do know that the battle was lost, afa rehab and renovations. He disagreed with the union practice that would allow workers to be paid half the going rate. That was the 70s. I remember it well because it had an effect on the entire industry. I.e., there was a slowdown. It's why in '77, I had to look for a different occupation.

told me on most work sites they didn't take kindly to non union workers trying to work on site...
no matter who they were or where they were from., legal or illegal.


Like I said, his dispute was with the union leadership that was allowing the disparity to happen. Nobody's going to say they were paid off. But, I can tell you that the principle was "same work, same pay." The carpenter's union, like most --back to the trade guilds-- was (had been) a family affair. It was taught father to son. Many in the union saw the West Indians as intruders and were fine with having them get paid less. This was also in the beginning of OSHA, so the sites were they worked weren't always safe.

Anyway, you said "work sites" but somebody can start working on a building without having union workers. Because of the 70s slowdown, we were told to "scope" sites and ask whether it was a union job. Ah, those were the days when it was a matter of life and death. People got beaten up and killed. Houses were firebombed. It might not have been as bad as the teamsters, but it made all the other unions I've been in seem like a joke. That's neither here nor there. My real point was that your uncle is right that union workers don't permit non-union workers on their sites. They can't even be hired without a union card.

Btw, my friend Paul started construction the same day I did. He was an iron-worker, and his first day was on floor 88 of Tower Number 2 at the WTC. Ask your uncle, that was before the OSHA rule that there has to be netting and a floor for every two stories built up. It is also necessary to have safety lines around each floor. That's not to take anything away from today's ironworkers, who are generally literally men of steel.

Here's the difference.
Image

Versus back in the day
Image

We were the last generation allowed to "ride the ball" to make connections with spud wrenches. Btw, I worked on bridges and that work was dominated by Iroquois and Norwegians. Still today, the trades are often kept in families.
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