Hong Kong Protests

[Peacedog]

Protests and violent suppression go hand in hand with unelected regimes. A friend almost died in central China when he accidently came across one of these at the exact same time the internal security police showed up and started machine gunning people in the early 2000s. It had an interesting and permanent effect upon his politics.

It is just the way it works. The Chinese government, to its credit, appears to have avoided the mass graves approach favored by many unelected, and socialist in particular, governments.

As the financial situation continues to worsen and their access to hard currency gets cut off, it will be interesting to see where Beijing goes with all of this. I expect, 20-30 years from now, China will once again be firmly in the regional powers category if not effectively collapsed into a set of semi-independent states. Beijing is clearly losing its grip and they simply lack the resources to keep the whole pie in one piece.

[windwalker]

Beijing is clearly losing its grip and they simply lack the resources to keep the whole pie in one piece.

Doubt it.

it is interesting reading the post it sounds like some of the posters are waiting for this to happen.

Why?

.Government spokesman Steffen Seibert said Friday that Hong Kong’s 1997 Basic Law, under which the city was promised a high degree of autonomy when the former British colony returned to China, “is a Chinese law, and as such we naturally expect that the People’s Republic of China, too, won’t call into question the peaceful exercise of these rights.”

It's a Chinese law wouldn't they also expect the law to be able to be changed in accordance to conditions, as needed.

Autonomy does not mean sovereignty.

This generation has grown up since the change, being influenced by other parts of the world they may be expecting to be able to do things that they cannot not do, not understanding where their basic rights and freedoms come from.

[Steve James]

Imo, there's nothing to stop the PRC from simply absorbing HK. Who's to stop 'em? The methods might be condemned, but that would be irrelevant.

I tend to agree that HK is a cash cow that the PRC wants to continue milking. I don't think the HK economy harms the interests of any other country. Otoh, there are interests on HK that want to keep certain liberties that the PRC might want to limit. I.e., it isn't just about the change in government; it's about who gets what percentage of what.

[Trick]

Protests and violent suppression go hand in hand with unelected regimes

not entirely true, sooner or later if protesters seriously disturb the order of the community, some level of violence is forced to be implemented to bring back order, no matter what regimes in power.

A friend almost died in central China when he accidently came across one of these at the exact same time the internal security police showed up and started machine gunning people in the early 2000s. It had an interesting and permanent effect upon his politics.

sorry,sound hard to believe, what was the protests about, where exactly was this supposed to have happened?

As the financial situation continues to worsen and their access to hard currency gets cut off, it will be interesting to see where Beijing goes with all of this. I expect, 20-30 years from now, China will once again be firmly in the regional powers category if not effectively collapsed into a set of semi-independent states.

sounds as straight out from the plan and wet dream by the foreign powers that always wanted a weak China.

[Trick]

it is interesting reading the post it sounds like some of the posters are waiting for this to happen.
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Yes so it seem. Even those who claim to be spiritually heightened seemingly doesn’t mind hope for little bloodbath(war) now and then, as long it’s in the name of peace ?

[windwalker]

. As the financial situation continues to worsen and their access to hard currency gets cut off, it will be interesting to see where Beijing goes with all of this

While true Hong Kong is a financial center it is only one of a couple of financial centers. Its function and status a remnant of a past time. As such while it's still relevant it is not as key as it may have been at one point.

Expect things to settle down as the PRC makes it clear while not forcing the situation they will not allow the situation to reach past a certain point.

HK has many structural problems, due in large part from many people living in a very small place. It's value through being a gateway is no longer necessarily needed although still perceived by some as a key gateway.

. The traditional Four Key Industries in Hong Kong, including financial services, tourism, trading and logistics, and professional and producer services, have been the driving force of Hong Kong's economic growth, providing impetus to growth of other sectors and creating employment.

All of which can be damaged affecting the people there with minimal impact on China as a whole.

Hopefully the real problems for the younger generation are adressed allowing them the see a path forward to becoming the older generation.

[Peacedog]

The main issue is that the government currently in action in China is a failed model of human organization. It essentially represents the government that all of humanity past the tribal level lived in prior to 300 years ago. It is inefficient, not self sustaining, requires theft and mass murder to function (hence the state of endemic warfare humanity spent most of its existence in), and cannot run a modern society.

Internally directed violence is a feature as people ultimately do no like being told how to live their lives. The Western democracies, south Korea, most of Latin America and Japan do not suffer from these problems as they have an avenue to avoid this. All other forms of government require the elite to use mass suppression and violence to maintain power.

The one child policy was a fatal mistake on the part of the Chinese government. They will collapse due to this alone. The fact that the rest of the world is getting wise to just how badly the Chinese government has ripped them off means that as labor ceases to be a significant part of manufacturing outside interests will simply stop dealing with them. And there goes your access to hard currency that props the whole regime up.

Since the form of government being utilized is not self sustaining, the government will be forced to either forcibly take more resources from outside the country, which probably does not work in a modern context, or they will go bankrupt.

It is not a matter of wishing for anything. It is just basic economics. Unlike the Arab regimes they cannot sell oil to outsiders to make up the difference. They had been utilizing labor to do this. But, next generation manufacturing will render this moot.

As for Hong Kong, no group of free people has ever been successfully reintegrated into a non-elected government. And the central government cannot be seen giving in to a group of Chinese people either or it will further embolden mainlanders.

The people in charge of the PRC know all of this as well. They are attempting to find a way out of it that avoids their being lynched by the mob. The problem is no unelected government has ever found a way to avoid this fate. They can only hold that day off for so long. What you are currently seeing there is the limit of what it will develop into without elected government.

[windwalker]

As for Hong Kong, no group of free people has ever been successfully reintegrated into a non-elected government. And the central government cannot be seen giving in to a group of Chinese people either or it will further embolden mainlanders.

Historically they were never autonomous, its a fiction to say free.
They were and are a part of China...

The people in charge of the PRC know all of this as well. They are attempting to find a way out of it that avoids their being lynched by the mob. The problem is no unelected government has ever found a way to avoid this fate. They can only hold that day off for so long. What you are currently seeing there is the limit of what it will develop into without elected government.

we must be looking with different eyes.

China, is going though finding its own way, in a way that accords with its history and culture.
What is being shown is restraint, understanding which has limits....

They are attempting to find a way out of it that avoids their being lynched by the mob.

and then? according to your statements they don't have a choice its an eventuality
unless they acquiesce to the mob.....

not happening,,,,anytime soon....
China will continue to evolve and adapt in a way that makes the most sense for them
as much as possible with out interference from the outside,,,,,

Conversely the west will find it has to adapt more and more of China's methods interesting enough developed though western tech,
trying to control what they advocate for others in the name of freedom... mob rule....

western technologies 'google" ect use freedom in order to develop technologies
that are used to control it openly in other places "China" by China.

Secretly using it in places that are considered to be "free" like the "USA"
controlling what some feel is free,
controlling it for " ? "

[Michael]

[Steve James]

Trump warns China against 'another Tiananmen Square,' says Tim Cook made 'compelling' tariff case

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... men-square

[Ian]

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[grzegorz]

Protests and violent suppression go hand in hand with unelected regimes. A friend almost died in central China when he accidently came across one of these at the exact same time the internal security police showed up and started machine gunning people in the early 2000s. It had an interesting and permanent effect upon his politics.

It is just the way it works. The Chinese government, to its credit, appears to have avoided the mass graves approach favored by many unelected, and socialist in particular, governments.

As the financial situation continues to worsen and their access to hard currency gets cut off, it will be interesting to see where Beijing goes with all of this. I expect, 20-30 years from now, China will once again be firmly in the regional powers category if not effectively collapsed into a set of semi-independent states. Beijing is clearly losing its grip and they simply lack the resources to keep the whole pie in one piece.

It's obvious that the grievances of the Chinese people are not being addressed starting with the Tiananmen Square protests which actually were occurring in over 400 cities.

Hard to say what the future will hold. I know many Chinese who were openly anti-government some because they had lost loved ones in similar protests or the falun gong executions.

Seems that the idea of just having a good job isn't cutting it anymore which shouldn't come as a surprise to those of us in Western countries.

[grzegorz]

it is interesting reading the post it sounds like some of the posters are waiting for this to happen.
.

Yes so it seem. Even those who claim to be spiritually heightened seemingly doesn’t mind hope for little bloodbath(war) now and then, as long it’s in the name of peace ?

One could say that two would like to see these protests crushed and yet claim to be spiritually enlightened.

Trick, so we have both seen protests within the PRC which means some Chinese are not happy with their government which means that yes some in HK will protests necessary.

No CIA necessary and obviously no one wants to see voilence but it seems to me that if we do that both Trick and Wind will back the PRC. Imagine that. Yes, we can play that game too.

[windwalker]

Sure HK belongs to China, so China has the "right", I suppose.

be safe

shouldn't the question be where does HK derive its "rights" from
is there any doubt about this....a statement was made that they were free

which was never the case

The history is quite interesting.

The Hong Kong 1956 riots were the result of escalating provocations between pro-Nationalist and pro-Communist factions in Hong Kong during Double Ten Day, 10 October 1956.[1]

Hong Kong 1967 leftist riots
While originating as a minor labour dispute, the tensions later grew into large scale demonstrations against British colonial rule. Demonstrators clashed violently with the Hong Kong Police Force.

22yrs left on the agreement made at hand over.
the conditions that created HK no longer exist, there are other centers that can take its place as needed.

China is not the China of the past either, as pointed out about HK...
it will act in its own interest, by what ever means it feels a need to.

the original flash point was to make an agreement/law that would allow extradition of a man back to taiwan who had killed his GF
which no longer seems to matter.



hopefully both sides will come to an understanding....one that allows for the eventuality
of what will come, to come of its own time not something forced.

[Ian]

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