Hong Kong Protests

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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:33 am

The last time (umbrella movement) was orchestrated by the CIA. That young Student who was proclaimed the leader of the movement was caught(with his father) on film going in to a meeting with CIA officials...Although a year o so back that’s all forgotten ? So The alphabet org can do it all over again
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:20 am

grzegorz wrote:I wish I had time to verify but what I heard on the radio is that the Chinese are blaming the US for these protests which is always a bad sign.

Thanks for your detailed post Fubo I remember the mainland going after those bookstores which surprised since they had always said Hong Kong would live as one country but with two systems.

Seems that with President Xi declaring himself president for life I can't imagine people who have some freedom would be happy about that.

I also heard Beijing has indicated that it is ready to step in. I don't know if this is true but I am sure that one point they would so that the mainlanders don't get inspired to challenge Beijing.



Sure thing. Yes, the booksellers incident really freaked people out and completely undermined the one country two systems agreement. From various accounts, both things I've been reading, and I still have my entire family and a lot of friends living there, the mainland is already involved, but I would not be surprised if the central government "publically" steps in. It's true about the concern that mainlanders would get inspired. This happened in 2014 also, so apart from the typical propaganda news you get in the mainland, the mainland installed groups in HK to act as the local opposition as counter-protesters. They were supposed to be passed off as "local Hong Kong citizens" in the Mong Kok district, but when you watched them speaking a lot of them didn't speak a word of Cantonese, but were speaking in Mandarin. And also the same thing with the triads happened where they were past off as "angry residents" in 2014, but after they beat up the actual residents there were videos of the police escorting them away and then letting them go free. All this to create fear, and to give the impression that there's a sizable population in HK that's against the pro democracy movement. The mainland doesn't want another June the 4th movement again, so it's easier to create chaos from within the community.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:34 am

I've heard all the conspiracy theories about western powers setting in motion the pro-democracy movements in 2014 and today, but it's completely ridiculous. You get One of the leaders “meeting” with a white guy and suddenly they’re meeting with the “CIA” reported in a conservative rag. I've heard it from old conservative uneducated people in the parks in HK that already ideologically lean towards the mainland, but that's not how the majority of HK see it. While the British were colonizers and that brutal history should not be whitewashed, what's happening today is about what the majority of Hong Kong people want and their fear that the one country two systems agreement has been compromised.

As far as the police being more infiltrated by the Triads pre-handover, that's just no the case. Nothing much has changed with Triad business, the difference being that they've been hired thugs from time to time for political reasons. In 2014 police were caught on video freeing triads after they pretended to be counter-protesters that beat up the local protesters in Mong Kok. Most recently the police not only allowed the brutal assault on protesters in Yuen Long as sources state they didn't want to stop or arrest the thugs because they knew they had been hired by a Chinese liaison officer and arresting them would go against the central government, despite the fact that these thugs were found after the fact with weapons.

While people want a stable Hong Kong, and want to be back at business as usual, things have changed this time. The common belief that business triumphs all in Hong Kong is not as true today, so while you have some people wanting all the protests to go away, the majority are of the same mid that fighting for their future is more important. They are also a lot more concerned about police brutality than they are about being inconvenienced. My brother was tear gas just as he was leaving work in the main business district which is something that we never thought would happen in Hong Kong.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:15 am

. (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China.


What do people expect to happen after 50 years.

.While the British were colonizers and that brutal history should not be whitewashed, what's happening today is about what the majority of Hong Kong people want and their fear that the one country two systems agreement has been compromised.


Compromised or not the system by which it's enacted they do not control, and are subjected to changes as thought to be necessary by the controlling interest.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:38 am

.
While people want a stable Hong Kong, and want to be back at business as usual, things have changed this time. The common belief that business triumphs all in Hong Kong is not as true today, so while you have some people wanting all the protests to go away, the majority are of the same mid that fighting for their future is more important


Interesting,
in 22 years or so, what future would this be when
the agreement term ends.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:37 pm

windwalker wrote:
What do people expect to happen after 50 years.


Compromised or not the system by which it's enacted they do not control, and are subjected to changes as thought to be necessary by the controlling interest.


Well, what people hoped was that 50 years would be enough of a buffer to push for a fully democratic system. That seems less and less likely today but in the past people had more of a “wait and see” attitude, while today there’s a sense of urgency like never before.

While the HK is people did not choose the system, they are happy with it, it the agreement came with the understanding that no changes were to be made that would comprise the best be country two systems rule. The extradition bill would have completely compromised it as it would have allowed HK people to be tried in the mainland under their laws.
Last edited by Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:48 pm

Fubo wrote:
windwalker wrote:
What do people expect to happen after 50 years.


Compromised or not the system by which it's enacted they do not control, and are subjected to changes as thought to be necessary by the controlling interest.


Well, what people hoped was that 50 years would be enough of a buffer to push for a fully democratic system. That seems less and less likely today but in the past people had more of a “wait and see” attitude, while today there’s a sense of urgency like never before.

While the HK is people did not choose the system, they are happy with it, it the agreement came with the understanding that no changes were to be made that would comprise the best be country two systems rule. The extradition bill would have completely compromised it as it would have allowed HK people to be tried in the mainland under their laws.



Considering we'er talking about China,,,a "fully democratic system" as they might understand or feel it should be seems unlikely.
The buffer very correct,,of course as you may know all they have to do is relax the visa requirement for the mainlanders, HK will be
overwhelmed by those from the mainland...Taiwan is the same way with the Taiwanese being very strict in this and controlling it for the same
reasons.

China, is changing in their own way...anything that threatens this will not be allowed or encouraged
it will be a Chinese system that may or not reflect what others feel democracies are.

Hope it all works out....for both sides.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:50 pm

windwalker wrote:
Interesting,
in 22 years or so, what future would this be when
the agreement term ends.


It’s really hard to say whether Hong Kong will become just another city as part of the mainland, or if something will be put in place to somewhat keep its culture identity and or population. As far as it’s political system, if nothing comes from these or future protests it’s likely that the government will lose full autonomy over its political and legal system. Many people had hoped that the mainland would make certain allowances for Hong Kong because of the risk of losing foreign businesses that currently reside there, but people are not so sure anymore.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:02 pm

Fubo wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Interesting,
in 22 years or so, what future would this be when
the agreement term ends.


It’s really hard to say whether Hong Kong will become just another city as part of the mainland, or if something will be put in place to somewhat keep its culture identity and or population. As far as it’s political system, if nothing comes from these or future protests it’s likely that the government will lose full autonomy over its political and legal system.


Hope it works out....often wonder what happens when HK loses what ever makes it have value now..ie when its not a good business place
or loses what ever advantage that makes it a great place to live.

IME Chinese that I've known / know, are very practical and very cognizant of what HK is and has to offer...
As a people in gen. don't see them breaking this....

My point was that 50 now 22 yrs is not a long time....china has long history, often very direct in its actions once things
reach a certain point,,,good or bad...

HK will always be HK,,,as you've mentioned most probably the political system will change...
how it changes and what changes seems like there is still time to manage this....
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Fubo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:14 pm

Hong Kong still hold some what of a special position in the territory considering its historical position as a financial hub, but not to the same degree as before when it was considered the “pearl of the orient”, because now China has opened its doors to foreign businesses too. It offers less incentives for the mainland to handle it with kids gloves. One can only hope for the best and I hope that these protests lead to positive results.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby grzegorz on Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:25 pm

Trick wrote:The last time (umbrella movement) was orchestrated by the CIA. That young Student who was proclaimed the leader of the movement was caught(with his father) on film going in to a meeting with CIA officials...Although a year o so back that’s all forgotten ? So The alphabet org can do it all over again


Wait a minute.

Didn't you just accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist?

Let's see your facts.

I don't believe the CIA, the FBI or UPS is behind these protests.

Beijing screwed themselves thinking they could get an extradition law passed.

Protests happen all over China so why not Hong Kong.

Please tell us where you are getting this because as far as I am concerned you're the conspiracy theorist now and you have a lot of explaining to do.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:30 am

I got that from the MSM, which ones I have forgot now. And as I said most have forgotten although it was just a few year back.......So time to repeat and do “right” this time the Mericans think.....Ups!
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby grzegorz on Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:42 am

Sorry, but I am not buying it. Yes there are spies and there is foreign influence but the idea that the US is responsible for people angry at being under an authoritarian government because the US is ludicrous.

I am angry at living under a ridiculous, clueless, authoritarian reality show star and it has nothing to do with a foreign power and more to do with my understanding of history that these "things" never end well.

This is China's century and they will overtake the US but it doesn't mean it's all unicorns farting fruit loops in the PRC.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby Ian on Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:23 am

69% of HK citizens are against the extradition bill, with well-educated being the most opposed:
Image

This includes doctors, lawyers, civil servants, bankers, old people, students. These people are hyper-aware of the threat of protest to their economy. HK is a super conservative and 'realistic' city, and always in the top five most laissez-faire economies in the world i.e. nobody's looking for handouts.

Yes, HK is a part of China. Yes, the Brits did plenty of immoral shit.
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Re: Hong Kong Protests

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:54 am

These are party arguments, let's not get distracted.


HK is part of China
What happens in China happens because its China

Regardless of past history according to an agreement made between countries , HK was returned to China

What is it that some here expect not to happen or be protected from?

At some point say like 22yrs what was agreed to will end...50yrs a transition time frame
allowing things to change and be managed with out hopefully causing to much disruption.

apologise on CCTV, like the Chinese-born Swedish citizen who got nabbed in Pattaya, or the HK citizen who got kidnapped in Shenzhen. Canadian and US citizens are also not exempt from abduction, as we've seen.


China, regards all people of Chinese ethnicity to be part of it regardless of nationality.
Also true for other countries like Iran for example, if ones ethnicity is Iranian and holds a
US passport while in Iran they will be / are considered to be subjected to their laws.

Iran does not recognize dual nationality, meaning that American-Iranians do not receive consular assistance when arrested and are often tried behind closed doors in Iran's Revolutionary Court, which handles cases of attempted government subversion.
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