Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:32 pm

In general, minorities may vote guilty of murder, non minorities won't. I believe there are plans to protest by minority groups and Jean's family civil attorney, if they don't get a favorable verdict.


You seem quite certain of how minorities will vote. There may very well be people who are preparing to protest a not-guilty verdict, but if it goes the other way, there will be those who protest too. I doubt that only "minorities" will protest. Anyway, if you're predicting a hung jury because there are minorities, there would only need to be one to hang it. If there were only non-minorities on the jury, then I guess you think an acquittal would be certain.

Personally, your arguments for her are less compelling than her demeanor and remorse. I'd say that predicting what "minorities" will do implies a sentiment towards them that only strengthens "their" view that their lives are worth less. But, like I said, I'll be interested to hear the verdict.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:30 pm

Steve James wrote:
In general, minorities may vote guilty of murder, non minorities won't. I believe there are plans to protest by minority groups and Jean's family civil attorney, if they don't get a favorable verdict.


You seem quite certain of how minorities will vote. There may very well be people who are preparing to protest a not-guilty verdict, but if it goes the other way, there will be those who protest too. I doubt that only "minorities" will protest. Anyway, if you're predicting a hung jury because there are minorities, there would only need to be one to hang it. If there were only non-minorities on the jury, then I guess you think an acquittal would be certain.

Personally, your arguments for her are less compelling than her demeanor and remorse. I'd say that predicting what "minorities" will do implies a sentiment towards them that only strengthens "their" view that their lives are worth less. But, like I said, I'll be interested to hear the verdict.

"In general, minorities may" does not mean "quite certain." You're misrepresenting by leaving out the other half of my earlier sentence: "and laws are a little confusing to the layperson (regardless of race)." Again, it is not my "personal arguments," it is understanding, applying appropriately and objectively TX law to the Amber case as described by the attorneys posted in this thread. Several attorneys stated out of the 12 jurors there is likely to be a hung jury. Your guess is wrong. If there were only non-minorities, it would still probably be a hung jury.

Again, a juror's rendering of a verdict is not supposed to be based on "remorse." Remorse can be used by judges in sentencing. A juror is supposed to use only the evidence provided in the trial while disregarding the length of sentences to render a fair and impartial verdict. Not "predicting." The fact is Lee Merritt, the Jean family's civil rights attorney and other black minority groups have mentioned public protests. I didn't hear of any white groups protesting. So, I didn't mention them.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:58 pm

I am not ignoring anything. I'm paying attention to the fact that you brought up "minorities" and suggested that there would be a hung jury because they were there. I grew up with "minorities," i.e. Italians, Jews, Catholics, and Germans, and I thought they were quite reasonable on the whole.

Ah, you didn't hear of any "white groups protesting." People don't need to be part of a group to protest. Are you saying that there were no White people participating in protests for Jean? But, sorry, the protests are not relevant to the law. The jury will no doubt see more information than you or I --not that I'll be looking. If you can't understand how even a minority would be upset and outraged if anyone accidentally walked into their relative's home and killed them, then there's nothing more for me to say. I'm not interested in arguing with you about minorities, or their capacity for rendering a fair verdict. I think those who are preparing to protest are only doing so because they are not sure of a verdict. I don't think it's because they know there are two White people on the jury, either.

Anyway, if you want to look at the case based on the "ethnicities" of the jurors, then I have to agree that if it were a Black civilian who walked into a White female police officer's apartment and shot her, people would expect some penalty. I don't think a jury of all-White police officers might be biased. However, I suspect that you'd say that they would just follow the law. Maybe, but not because they're White or police officers.

You get the last word. I feel more for the Jean family than for the woman. I'm not going to argue that I'd vote one way or the other because I'm just an observer. If she's acquitted, though, I doubt you'll change your mind about minorities.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:01 pm

Steve James wrote:I am not ignoring anything. I'm paying attention to the fact that you brought up "minorities" and suggested that there would be a hung jury because they were there.

You are ignoring the other half of my statement. For the 3rd time posting in this thread:
marvin8 wrote:I addressed that here:
marvin8 wrote:My guess is there will be a hung jury, given there are 10 minorities on the jury in Dallas county and the laws are a little confusing to the layperson. By TX law and prosecution's lack of evidence to disprove "mistake of fact," I believe Amber is not guilty. . . .

You're misrepresenting by leaving out the other half of my earlier sentence . . .

Several attorneys stated out of the 12 jurors there is likely to be a hung jury. Your guess is wrong. If there were only non-minorities, it would still probably be a hung jury.

To be fair, don't ignore debating the other half of my statement, "the laws are a little confusing to the layperson." Debate the attorney articles, videos and podcasts (posted on the 1st page) discussing the contradictions in the "Mistake of Fact" law and lesser charges.

Steve James wrote:Anyway, if you want to look at the case based on the "ethnicities" of the jurors, then I have to agree that if it were a Black civilian who walked into a White female police officer's apartment and shot her, people would expect some penalty. I don't think a jury of all-White police officers might be biased. However, I suspect that you'd say that they would just follow the law. Maybe, but not because they're White or police officers.

Again, your misrepresenting and ignoring my statement. Not all would "follow the law" and hang:
marvin8 wrote:If there were only non-minorities, it would still probably be a hung jury.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:38 am

Judge Kemp includes Mistake of fact, Castle doctrine, Apparent danger, murder and manslaughter in instructions. The jury will decide murder, manslaughter or not guilty.

Peter Schulte on 1 hour ago wrote:AMBER GUYGER TRIAL DAY 7:

It appears the case is almost ready to be argued and given to the jury.

I was concerned about the jury charge and what the Court would allow. Now we know. “Mistake of fact” and “Castle doctrine,”
as I expected should be in the charge. The State did ask for the lesser-included offense of manslaughter in the charge and the Judge granted their request. That surprises me, as it was ADA Jason Hermus who asked #Guyger if she intentionally shot Botham Jean and she said yes. So with that evidence, #Guyger would be guilty of murder or not guilty based on the two defenses of “mistake of fact” and “castle doctrine/self-defense.” Remember if the State of Texas cannot disprove those defenses behind a reasonable doubt, the jury must acquit.

With those in the jury charge, in my opinion, it’s a legal impossibility for the jury to find her guilty of murder, if they follow the law. It’s going to be interesting to watch!

I’ll post more as I can...

Jury Instructions and closing arguments.

WFAA
streaming 2 hours ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_VQQTolHo0
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby grzegorz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:30 am

Interesting, I found it odd that her defense is that he was approaching her. Yes, if he's answering the door you are pound on then he would have to approach you but now this.


Jurors can consider the so-called castle doctrine in the murder trial of ex-police officer Amber Guyger

By Darran Simon, CNN
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:00 am

grzegorz wrote:Interesting, I found it odd that her defense is that he was approaching her. Yes, if he's answering the door you are pound on then he would have to approach you but now this.


Jurors can consider the so-called castle doctrine in the murder trial of ex-police officer Amber Guyger

By Darran Simon, CNN

I am not sure what you mean. She felt her life was threatened by Jean's advancing. She has the right to be there by "mistake of fact" believing she is in her own home. She defends herself under the castle doctrine.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:52 am

There will obviously be an appeal, and she might win. However, all that talk about a jury not being able to reach a consensus because there were a mixture of minorities and non-minorities doesn't seem to be confirmed.

If she loses the appeal, I still think she'll get a light sentence. Maybe just probation.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:54 am

Excerpt from Amber Guyger convicted of murder for killing Botham Jean:
Jennifer Emily, LaVendrick Smith and Dana Branham on Oct 1, 2019 wrote:A Dallas County jury on Tuesday convicted fired police officer Amber Guyger of murder for fatally shooting Botham Jean in his apartment last year.

Cheers broke out in the hallway outside the courtroom after the verdict was announced shortly after 10:30 a.m.

Testimony in the punishment phase of Guyger’s trial will proceed this afternoon, with another round of jury deliberations to come after that. In Texas, murder carries a sentence of five to 99 years or life in prison. The charge is not eligible for probation.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:02 am

Well, personally, if someone accidentally ran my son or daughter down while distracted driving, a 99 year sentence wouldn't help. If it were my child, I'd say that 5 years was too few. But, as a juror, I'd probably say it was fair. I wouldn't be able to give anyone a reason to go for 10 or more. That's just me.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:00 pm

Unanimous verdict: guilty of MURDER!

https://abcnews.go.com/US/amber-guyger- ... d=65978073
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:06 pm

Steve James wrote:There will obviously be an appeal, and she might win. However, all that talk about a jury not being able to reach a consensus because there were a mixture of minorities and non-minorities doesn't seem to be confirmed.

If she loses the appeal, I still think she'll get a light sentence. Maybe just probation.

Defense will appeal. The hung jury concensus was less about race (as you seemed to want to make it) than the conflict of the laws.

However, the 10 minorities jury and environment probably did have something to do with the guilty conviction. There were concerns about having the trial in Dallas county where racial tensions were ignited as I mentioned. Not to say the jury is wrong either. They may have truly not believed her story. It will be interesting to see what sentence judge Kemp gives.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:13 pm

Yeah, I'm sure that having a jury partially made up of a historically oppressed segment of society made them more keenly aware of how full of shit the defense was.

She shot and murdered a man sitting on his own couch eating ice cream.

What was she worried about after murdering him? Not that she had done something terrible. No. She was worried about losing her job.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:15 pm

"Identity politics" are always lambasted when things don't go the way of the olden days. But, if it goes swell for the old status quo, it's all about how everyone is equal and you shouldn't bring up race. You don't get to have it both ways.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:22 pm

grzegorz wrote:Interesting, I found it odd that her defense is that he was approaching her. Yes, if he's answering the door you are pound on then he would have to approach you but now this.


Jurors can consider the so-called castle doctrine in the murder trial of ex-police officer Amber Guyger

By Darran Simon, CNN


If you watch the video of where he is, there is a hallway, a kitchen, and a kitchen island in between Guyer at the door and the couch where the victim was shot. It is not clear at all that he was approaching her, and from her own testimony, it sounds like he had his hands up.
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