Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Michael on Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:38 pm

That was extremely moving.

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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:32 am

ABC News
Oct 4, 2019

Two of the 12 jurors told ABC News’ Marcus Moore there was “a lot of crying” as they found ex-Dallas police officer Guyger guilty of murdering Botham Jean.
READ MORE: https://abcn.ws/2o4y0BC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caoxMnAR_R0

@ 5:50, Regarding an appeal, Schulte says Guyger is capped at 10 years in a new trial. Another jury can't give her more than that unless there's aggravating circumstances which he doesn't think there will be.
Chris Krok: Pete Schulte – An Unprecedented Act
Posted on October 3, 2019

Pete Schulte joined the Chris Krok show to discuss the sentence handed down by the jury. He says what happened during sentencing is something he’s never seen in his career…

http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/03/chris-kr ... ented-act/
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:51 am

They're both minorities too. I didn't know there were 8 women. I need to readjust my perspective once again, though I won't. What the female juror said about the emotions and considerations of remorse, etc., in the jury room is exactly what I said it would be like. They admit it, but that's why there are juries --they are not expected to leave their feelings at the door because they are there to seek Justice.

The Black? woman even said that she couldn't imagine giving Guyger 28 years. The man (a minority in the jury and in the world) said he was shocked about the 5 to 99 year possible sentence. They all acknowledged that what Guyger did was a mistake, an accident. Any reasonable (unprejudiced) person will see that. Yes, as you said, "regardless of race," and now we can add sex.

Afa Pete Schulte, his speculations are as good as anyone else's. Guyger's reaction at trial was that she wishes she had died, instead of Jean. I think her reaction, the reaction of Jean's brother, and the Jean family is a better takeaway from this incident than Schulte's claim of a "compromised jury." Otoh, we can learn something from that too.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Steve James wrote:They're both minorities too. I didn't know there were 8 women. I need to readjust my perspective once again, though I won't. What the female juror said about the emotions and considerations of remorse, etc., in the jury room is exactly what I said it would be like. They admit it, but that's why there are juries --they are not expected to leave their feelings at the door because they are there to seek Justice.

The female juror rightfully considered remorse in the sentencing of Amber. However, jurors are supposed to follow the law in rendering verdicts, leaving bias and vigilantism at the door (not to say there was any in this case).

Steve James wrote:The Black? woman even said that she couldn't imagine giving Guyger 28 years. The man (a minority in the jury and in the world) said he was shocked about the 5 to 99 year possible sentence. They all acknowledged that what Guyger did was a mistake, an accident. Any reasonable (unprejudiced) person will see that. Yes, as you said, "regardless of race," and now we can add sex.

It was a "mistake of fact" which was in the jury instructions. Since all the jurors acknowledged Amber acted in self defense by mistake, the correct decision by following the law is not guilty.

Steve James wrote:Afa Pete Schulte, his speculations are as good as anyone else's. Guyger's reaction at trial was that she wishes she had died, instead of Jean. I think her reaction, the reaction of Jean's brother, and the Jean family is a better takeaway from this incident than Schulte's claim of a "compromised jury." Otoh, we can learn something from that too.

Schulte did not claim "compromised jury." He said they gave a correct verdict (either murder or not guilty) but, apparently did not understand "mistake by fact" in the jury instructions. Schulte said that convicting Amber on the lesser charge of manslaughter would be a "compromise verdict" inconsistent with Texas law.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:18 pm

It was a "mistake of fact" which was in the jury instructions. Since all the jurors acknowledged Amber acted in self defense by mistake, the correct decision by following the law is not guilty.


This is your interpretation, which is a stretch as I have pointed out. I pointed out what murder is according to Texas law. Manslaughter would be reasonable if she killed him by accident. But, she didn't accidentally shoot him. She murdered him.

I was talking with my wife about the sentence yesterday. Ten years seems reasonable. I thought the family asking for 26 years was interesting. But, I do recognize she made a mistake. It wasn't premeditated even if she did shoot him.

Do you think ten years is reasonable in this case (murder and manslaughter aside for the moment)?
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:39 pm

Well, first, "mistake of fact" like "self defense" are only defenses that the jury considers among the possible verdicts they are given. A jury can reject those defenses.

Schulte did not claim "compromised jury."


You're right. He said in that the "verdict" was compromised, and then he talks about the jury.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:24 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
It was a "mistake of fact" which was in the jury instructions. Since all the jurors acknowledged Amber acted in self defense by mistake, the correct decision by following the law is not guilty.


This is your interpretation, which is a stretch as I have pointed out. I pointed out what murder is according to Texas law. Manslaughter would be reasonable if she killed him by accident. But, she didn't accidentally shoot him. She murdered him.

It's not "my" interpretation. I included videos (1st page) of attorneys explaining, posted a link to the "mistake of fact" penal code and explained it the same way. You did not point out a stretch in self defense by "mistake of fact" which is a legal defense in TX.

“Mistake of fact” is explained by these two attorneys starting at 3:56 and 1:05, respectively. If you think these attorneys' explanations are "a stretch," please post your own explanation and argument.

marvin8 wrote:Published on Sep 24, 2019


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wpQQKwbXD8

Published on Sep 23, 2019 8:59 PM

Former police officer, prosecutor, and now criminal defense attorney Pete Schulte joined the Chris Krok Show to talk about the Amber Guyger trial; he doesn't think the prosecution has much of a case...
https://omny.fm/shows/chris-krok/chris- ... ber-guyger
marvin8 wrote:Right. However, Judge Kemp included "mistake of fact" in the jury instructions which if not disproved gave Amber the legal right to believe it was her own house and defend herself.


Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I was talking with my wife about the sentence yesterday. Ten years seems reasonable. I thought the family asking for 26 years was interesting. But, I do recognize she made a mistake. It wasn't premeditated even if she did shoot him.

Right, she made a "mistake of fact" which is a legal defense making her not guilty.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Do you think ten years is reasonable in this case (murder and manslaughter aside for the moment)?

By following the law, no. She should be found not guilty and serve no time given the laws of TX. As all the jurors acknowledged, the prosecution did not disprove Ambers claim of justified self defense.

We can not follow the law and decide verdicts by speculating or using our gut feelings. It may work at times. But, it may not work at other times. May be laws need to be changed to address this rare situation. However, that is another subject.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:19 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, first, "mistake of fact" like "self defense" are only defenses that the jury considers among the possible verdicts they are given. A jury can reject those defenses.

But, they agreed with Amber's defense of "mistake of fact." They "all agreed it was a mistake (at 1:35)." But, convicted her of murder despite the laws. The jury asked questions on "mistake of fact" and attorneys said the defense did an inadequate job in explaining the "mistake of fact" defense.

Steve James wrote:
Schulte did not claim "compromised jury."


You're right. He said in that the "verdict" was compromised, and then he talks about the jury.

No, he did not say that. He said that if the jury renders a manslaughter verdict, there would be a compromised verdict. The jury did not give a manslaughter verdict.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby yeniseri on Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:46 pm

That is one effed up defense and some people are taking it seriouslu! Go figure!
I break into someone's else's house and claim I shot the person in self defense because I feared for my life. There is some deep planetary burrshit ;D going on here.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:58 pm

But, they agreed with Amber's defense of "mistake of fact." They "all agreed it was a mistake (at 1:35).


They agreed it was a mistake; they obviously didn't agree that it was a defense.

No, he did not say that. He said that if the jury renders a manslaughter verdict, there would be a compromised verdict.


Ok, here's the link to the clip you provided. The first thing he mentions is the speed of the sentencing deliberation, then what does he say next with the word "compromised"? Anybody, start at .35 seconds http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/03/chris-kr ... ented-act/
http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/03/chris-krok-pete-schulte-an-unprecedented-act/
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:46 pm

Steve James wrote:
But, they agreed with Amber's defense of "mistake of fact." They "all agreed it was a mistake (at 1:35).


They agreed it was a mistake; they obviously didn't agree that it was a defense.

Whether they agree or not, "mistake of fact" is a legal defense in TX that Amber has a right to. The defense attorneys may have failed to explain it better.

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:No, he did not say that. He said that if the jury renders a manslaughter verdict, there would be a compromised verdict.


Ok, here's the link to the clip you provided. The first thing he mentions is the speed of the sentencing deliberation, then what does he say next with the word "compromised"? Anybody, start at .35 seconds http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/03/chris-kr ... ented-act/
http://www.wbap.com/2019/10/03/chris-krok-pete-schulte-an-unprecedented-act/

You're right. You hadn't included the link earlier. I didn't remember he used the term there as well. I didn't understand what you meant by "a better takeaway from this incident than Schulte's claim of a "compromised jury." Because, Schulte said the jury did a good thing (compromised verdict) and gave a correct verdict. Now that the jury said they "all agreed it was a mistake," he may have another opinion.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:08 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
It was a "mistake of fact" which was in the jury instructions. Since all the jurors acknowledged Amber acted in self defense by mistake, the correct decision by following the law is not guilty.


This is your interpretation, which is a stretch as I have pointed out. I pointed out what murder is according to Texas law. Manslaughter would be reasonable if she killed him by accident. But, she didn't accidentally shoot him. She murdered him.

It's not "my" interpretation. I included videos (1st page) of attorneys explaining, posted a link to the "mistake of fact" penal code and explained it the same way. You did not point out a stretch in self defense by "mistake of fact" which is a legal defense in TX.

“Mistake of fact” is explained by these two attorneys starting at 3:56 and 1:05, respectively. If you think these attorneys' explanations are "a stretch," please post your own explanation and argument.

marvin8 wrote:Published on Sep 24, 2019


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wpQQKwbXD8

Published on Sep 23, 2019 8:59 PM

Former police officer, prosecutor, and now criminal defense attorney Pete Schulte joined the Chris Krok Show to talk about the Amber Guyger trial; he doesn't think the prosecution has much of a case...
https://omny.fm/shows/chris-krok/chris- ... ber-guyger
marvin8 wrote:Right. However, Judge Kemp included "mistake of fact" in the jury instructions which if not disproved gave Amber the legal right to believe it was her own house and defend herself.


Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I was talking with my wife about the sentence yesterday. Ten years seems reasonable. I thought the family asking for 26 years was interesting. But, I do recognize she made a mistake. It wasn't premeditated even if she did shoot him.

Right, she made a "mistake of fact" which is a legal defense making her not guilty.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Do you think ten years is reasonable in this case (murder and manslaughter aside for the moment)?

By following the law, no. She should be found not guilty and serve no time given the laws of TX. As all the jurors acknowledged, the prosecution did not disprove Ambers claim of justified self defense.

We can not follow the law and decide verdicts by speculating or using our gut feelings. It may work at times. But, it may not work at other times. May be laws need to be changed to address this rare situation. However, that is another subject.


Just because the Judge allows the jury to be instructed on a law doesn't mean the jury has to think it's appropriate to apply the law. The point is to make them aware of it. The combination of Castle Doctrine and Mistake of Fact don't float the boat because the jury didn't think that the officer was in danger (you deny the ice cream and being on the couch, but that's a contention between the prosecutor and defense--and of course the defense has to try and argue that she was under threat).

Anyway, you are still not answering my question. What do you think her sentence should be? No, not according to the law. That's such a lame copout. Lots of horrible things have been legal.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:49 pm

Here's the longer version. I haven't listened yet. Not sure what it's about.

Left In Bama
Oct 4, 2019

#belikebo #Amberguyger #bothamshemjean Comments from Full raw video by two jurors who speak on Amber Guyger Botham Jean court case trial & why the jury made their decisions. Fast forward thru video by section...view top comment to sek and search quickly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYcfKor-5yI

Left In Bama
1 hour ago (edited)

17 POINTS to find QUICKLY
1:25 DELIBERATION

33:44 "We all believed it was a MISTAKE" but felt also gee statements of shoot to kill meant murder verdict guilty.

35:00 JURY SHOULDN'T have to decide sentencing..

35:15 CONSIDER RIOTING could happen

36:00 CAN'T COMPARE THIS CASE to the many that have happened of killings of unarmed black men facing arrest. Even the visable remore Amber showed during & after is totally different then other police who've come under scrutiny.

36:57 PEOPLE WHO JUDGE THIS JURY SENTENCE and demand change, be sure you go register to vote and attend jury when summoned.

37:00 YOUR CIVIC DUTY is important. Decisions & sentences are made by the jurors not the justice system. The community needs to step up with action instead of discussion, talk and blame.

40:00 REGARDING SENTENCING: jurors must come to a compromise which is a struggle, that's a lot of added and worse pressure. The trial we mainly decide facts of the case over emotions. Sentencing we must take the defendant, the victim amd the victims family into our decision.

42:00 Asking us for an "EYE FOR AN EYE" isn't fair when we all felt it truly was an ACCIDENT not a premeditated, cold blooded killing.

42:00 UNANIMOUSLY we agreed, RACE WAS NOT A FACTOR In this killing.
Race not a factor. Unanimously agreed she had decided to shoot to kill whomever was behind the door of what she believed was her apt before she ever entered.
We found her CREDIBLE The few things trying to point towards her possibly being racist just werent there. They never brought one witness who stated she was nasty, mean, vicious, vindictive or racist- just the opposite.

48:00 UNLESS YOU'RE IN THIS COURTROOM you can not get the totality of the circumstances. Even watching live on TV you aren't able to view the defendants face to discern reactions. We unanimously saw REMORSE on her face & the shell of a person from the beginning of the trial.

48:50 on FORGIVENESS

49:05 GOD & PRAYER in that courtroom


49:30 After seeing the VIDEO OF BROTHER & JUDGE HUGGING Amber Guyger

49:48 PUBLIC REACTIONS on the brothers impact statement (slave mentality). Points on rehabilitation.

53:35 On compromising on Amber Guyger SENTENCE

55:19 on BOTHAM's LEGACY
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:17 pm

Anyway, 12 people decided the way they did. I'm not interested in debating why. My complaint is that their ethnic and gender composition is given to support the opinion she should have been acquitted, or that they caused the verdict to be compromised. I don't know what he means by compromised, but I note that he was discussing it with the podcaster before the verdict. Thing is, if they'd acquitted her, nobody would change their opinion about them anyway.

A Black (Somali American) police officer who mistakenly shot a White female tourist in Minnesota. His jury was "diverse," and they convicted him of murder 3rd degree and Manslaughter. He was the first MN policeman to be convicted of murder while on duty. His defense was that he saw the woman banging on the door of the cruiser that his partner was in and that he shot to save his partner's life. Honest "mistake," right? I'm not sure what the ultimate sentence was, but I remember that 20 years was the maximum. The defense argued that he shouldn't get any jail time. I understand the conviction, even if it doesn't always happen; and I would also suggest a lenient sentence.

That's just my opinion.
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Re: Dallas cop claims self-defense in apt. mix-up murder trial

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:54 am

Steve James wrote:Anyway, 12 people decided the way they did. I'm not interested in debating why. My complaint is that their ethnic and gender composition is given to support the opinion she should have been acquitted, or that they caused the verdict to be compromised.

Again, your complaint is about a statement you made up (no one else said that) to push your own false narrative. I explained the jury selection process. You will find many articles on jury selection if that subject interests you. Here is one, "Race Matters in Jury Selection."

Steve James wrote:I don't know what he means by compromised, but I note that he was discussing it with the podcaster before the verdict. Thing is, if they'd acquitted her, nobody would change their opinion about them anyway.

Wrong, He was discussing it after the verdict which should be obvious by reading my reply:
marvin8 wrote:Schulte did not claim "compromised jury." He said they gave a correct verdict (either murder or not guilty) but, apparently did not understand "mistake by fact" in the jury instructions. Schulte said that convicting Amber on the lesser charge of manslaughter would be a "compromise verdict" inconsistent with Texas law.

Compromise verdict is a legal term that has nothing to do with ethnic or gender composition. Compromise verdict: A verdict where jurors may compromise their true positions in order to avoid a deadlock or to prolong deliberations and lead to deadlock.
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