A sincere hope

Rum, beer, movies, nice websites, gaming, etc., without interrupting the flow of martial threads.

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:57 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
windwalker wrote:
. This is not sarcasm or irony on my part. I really hope it turns out this way. I want the scientists and those basically believing them (such as myself) to be proved wrong by events in the future and I want the CC sceptics to be proved right, big time.


Science is about
Observation, arriving at a theory that reflects and explains what one has observed.


There are many scientists skeptical of the modeling used buy those using the co2 modeling in the climate debate..


No, there are not "many" scientists who hold this stance, especially not scientists who work in this area.

how many scientists are there that" push" the man made climat change theory ? 50, 100, a thousand ? i guess thre must be an official UN scientist group ? sincere question
Trick

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:09 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
it is ridiculous on its face for people to suggest that billions (more) humans have had no effect.


Couldn't agree more, but there are lots of ridiculous people posting ridiculous things right here on our own community page. BTW, it always seems to be the same people who are also defenders of fascists and conspiracy theories.

so what's the suggested solution then, population control ?
Trick

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby roger hao on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:00 am

The solution is to make it a closed forum dis-allowing anyone who supports
conspiracy theories or fascists.

Oh sorry - did you mean the solution to dirty air - rising sea levels - etc?
roger hao

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:56 am

Aw, fascists should just announce themselves. They have no need to feel ashamed they won't admit it. Don't be politically correct. If/when they do, expect criticism. But, they should be proud and let their flag fly free.

Anyway, anti climate change activists are a lot like flat earthers. For ex., https://www.iflscience.com/space/this-i ... theorists/
They say they use science and philosophy to prove their point. But, if I say that they're silly, I'm labelled as anti-conspiracy theory. Unfortunately, an label I would use for them would be considered an insult. Frankly, it would be; but, it's nice to be nice.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21215
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: A sincere hope

Postby roger hao on Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:36 am

Climate change activists should out themselves whether they are
political activists using climate change to effect a political agenda
or fully concerned about the weather.
To explain - what many so-called fascist ant-climate change activists
are against is the political agenda. Not many deny that there may be global warming.
Or that we may be experiencing severe weather. When they speak out about carbon tax etc etc
they are accused of heresy and not believing science by those with the agenda.
Then - when cornered - they say "but why not work for clean water and clean air".
BTW - Flat Earthers are flat out crazy - everyone know now that the Earth is a torroidal donut.
roger hao

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:13 am

Trick wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
it is ridiculous on its face for people to suggest that billions (more) humans have had no effect.


Couldn't agree more, but there are lots of ridiculous people posting ridiculous things right here on our own community page. BTW, it always seems to be the same people who are also defenders of fascists and conspiracy theories.

so what's the suggested solution then, population control ?


There are myriad ideas of how to tackle the problem. I posted plenty of reading and my own opinions on the matter above. I don't think enforced population control would be fair or just. An ontological shift will almost certainly be necessary. But, it will also need to be a combination of approaches including technological advances, restructuring of economic systems, and a reappraisal of agency.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:13 am

roger hao wrote:Climate change activists should out themselves whether they are
political activists using climate change to effect a political agenda
or fully concerned about the weather.
To explain - what many so-called fascist ant-climate change activists
are against is the political agenda. Not many deny that there may be global warming.
Or that we may be experiencing severe weather. When they speak out about carbon tax etc etc
they are accused of heresy and not believing science by those with the agenda.
Then - when cornered - they say "but why not work for clean water and clean air".
BTW - Flat Earthers are flat out crazy - everyone know now that the Earth is a torroidal donut.


Anyone who has thought seriously about global warming recognizes that you cannot divorce the problem from politics/economics.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:23 am

No such thing as a "so called" fascist. Fascism is not a so called thing; it is a political and ideological agenda. There are loads of pretend fascists who say exactly the same things that the real fascists do. They talk about fascists (and nazis) as if they're talking about someone else. They want to regain the fascist empire they believe they deserve.

Anyway, nobody likes to equate fascism with the "right", but the entire ideology is based on opposition to socialism/communism. When it comes to global warming, the argument that "we" should not cut down fewer forests, drill for oil in "public" lands, reduce carbon emissions from automobiles, the cry is raised that it is a leftist political agenda.

I don't have a clue what you mean by cornered. I'm not a scientist. I don't think there's anything wrong with working for clean air and water. I'd say that providing clean water is the least a government can do for the people. I don't think there's any downside to reducing air pollution. I certainly don't see a rational political reason to oppose it.

Disputing climate change does not make anyone a fascist by any stretch of the imagination. It doesn't necessarily make one a conspiracy theorist. However, the difference between the evidence for aopt against climate change is massive. Sure, one can find a scientist who disputes specific causes and effects. But, one can't claim to be objectively considering the scientific evidence if one argues that it's a conspiracy.

Guy goes to the doctor with a sore on his leg. Doctor says it'll go away in a month. Worried, Guy goes for a second opinion, and the doctor says it's a malignant melanoma. So, Guy goes to 25 more doctors who all agree that it's a melanoma. What advice would you give the guy? He's a liberal :).
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21215
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: A sincere hope

Postby roger hao on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:28 am

As far as divorcing politics from climate change - I never said that.
It is the politics of the climate change activists that is disagreed with.
Especially the penalties put on the US for energy usage.
Once again Ian - you prove my point - that climate change activists
instantly move their argument to support their position into a challenge
of denial of a fundamental truth. The fact that you can't divorce politics or economics
from climate change does not make any of the political agenda valid.
It is under the guise of climate change that political goals are being promoted.
roger hao

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:34 am

Trick wrote:

how many scientists are there that" push" the man made climat change theory ? 50, 100, a thousand ? i guess thre must be an official UN scientist group ? sincere question


I will treat this as a sincere question. But, I thought this was common knowledge.

1) Depending on exactly how you measure the expert consensus, it’s somewhere between 90% and 100% that agree humans are responsible for climate change, with most of our studies finding 97% consensus among publishing climate scientists.


https://skepticalscience.com/global-war ... ediate.htm

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:37 am

roger hao wrote:As far as divorcing politics from climate change - I never said that.
It is the politics of the climate change activists that is disagreed with.
Especially the penalties put on the US for energy usage.
Once again Ian - you prove my point - that climate change activists
instantly move their argument to support their position into a challenge
of denial of a fundamental truth. The fact that you can't divorce politics or economics
from climate change does not make any of the political agenda valid.
It is under the guise of climate change that political goals are being promoted.


Say what?

Climate change activists should out themselves whether they are
political activists using climate change to effect a political agenda
or fully concerned about the weather.


???

Not all climate deniers are conspiracy theorists, but you seem to be.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:43 am

It is under the guise of [how to address] climate change that political goals are being promoted.


You've already said that few dispute global warming (which isn't the same as climate change, but ok). Climate change isn't something someone made up to destroy the auto industry or oil companies. Of course, the owners of those industries would certainly be interested in affecting the politics. They don't want to drill to provide fuel; they do it because they want to sell fuel. They give money to political campaigns and lobby Congress to allow them to do what they want; i.e., make a profit. It was just as true for the science presented about the dangers of smoking. The Marlboro man died of lung cancer.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21215
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: A sincere hope

Postby roger hao on Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:00 pm

Ian - I can explain

Climate change is being used as a tool to effect a shift in money , influence, power.

I consider the term 'conspiracy theorist' as positive in connotation.
roger hao

 

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:12 pm

roger hao wrote:Ian - I can explain

Climate change is being used as a tool to effect a shift in money , influence, power.

I consider the term 'conspiracy theorist' as positive in connotation.


I agree that some are seizing on the potential action stemming from climate change to simultaneously address political, social, and economic systems. I agree that for some, this is their main goal. But, I don't think that most scholars and climate activists are taking such an approach.

As I have repeatedly stated, the discussion of climate change and what we should or can do about it cannot be divorced from politics. So, I think you are really overstating this, and it's a cheap (political) tactic used by conservatives to dismiss the science and scholarship in this arena.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:00 am

Ian, thanks for your answers
Trick

 

PreviousNext

Return to Off the Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests