A sincere hope

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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:43 am

She's sailed across an ocean. She's spoken before the UN. She's known and respected by millions of people. She's inspired millions of people, especially young people. Her name is spoken millions of times daily. Why is it that a President of the USA can single her out for ridicule? :) Ok, apart from him, she's ridiculed by nobodies.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:18 am

All that the activists of this forum could have done too, if they where backed or somehow connected to/by the ‘Right’ people 8-)
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:24 am

How many trees have anyone here planted in Pakistan or other regions that are in need of trees. How many trees have you hugged in the Amazonas in order to prevent deforestation by big corps...none?
Maybe you have given big donations to the global tree planting orgs(and similar)....or maybe not...
Did anyone ever had (or still has)a work as a driver, bus, taxi or truck, was it gasoline or diesel ? How many cars have you had so far?
Why not get together start an self sustainable green farm community ....but be careful, your kids may still go Children Of The Corn activistic.

When it comes to the reality i guess most westerner tree-huggers are the kinds that rather go for Ayahuasca Trip in the Amazonas...And growing far more weed than corn at their Hippie farms..... 8-)

I won’t go too deep into this since the wound might be too deep for the war veterans(of this forum)that fought the US Oil wars. I just say the obvious that those(ongoing)US Oil wars has not been in the spirit to make the planet green again, we have ALL known that since ever ?.....

This is now hiding behind a 16 year old girl, saying that she is a strong spokeswoman perfectly capable standing on her own legs.
But then when those who disagree with them that shielding behind the girls back, there’s choirs of - ‘Shame on you, attacking a little girl like that’.....8-)

Very Monty Pythonesque...
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:58 am

Lots of people think they're exceptional. But it's just a Dunning Krueger effect. That's why they're envious of the attention a little Swedish girl is getting. Like I said, it's illustrated by the amount that effort they put into putting her down. And when it's pointed out, they get defensive.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:08 am

To share something I saw elsewhere, Jason Momoa, big muscular actor who played the new Conan the barbarian, Aquaman, and a barbarian King in game of thrones, gave a speech with much the same content shortly after Greta, but you don't hear much from the broflakes about him.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:57 am

People could caricature and ridicule Al Gore or Jane Fonda or lots of people. They pick on Greta only because she gets so much attention. The ridicule is an expression of their repressed admiration. Time magazine listed her as one of the 100 most influential people on the planet. Of course, anonymous people on the internet would love to be considered as she is.

Instead, it's easier to see her as representing the forces and agendas that have been holding them back and keeping them from their rightful recognition --for doing nothing special, by age 16 or 26. It's not quite the same as Caesar lamenting the realization that he'd never equal Alexander. :)
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby BruceP on Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:12 pm

Aw, well, when she showed up in Edmonton to preach to Canadians about changing our energy use habits, it smacked of total disconnect from the reality of Canada's energy demands - and of global demands, as projected by IEA assessments into 2040 (cited in the comments section in the link below).

Yeah, Steve. More than 18000 posts, one would would think you know what you're talking about all the time - like this time, when you state that people opposed to the climate alarmist kid are just jealous of the attention they're getting. Yeah, envy, that's it, eh, Steve? sheesh...
https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local- ... ate-strike

People aren't taking the "easier" route by pointing to the hypocrisy of kids' use of all the modern technologies and devices, while sucking up more energy than the generation(s) before them.

Canada is huge. It's never had an extensive rail system with which to move goods around the country. Also, a lot of rail has been decommissioned over the last 20 years. So, most of geographical Canada is supplied with groceries and consumer good via trucks. There are thousands of Northern communities across Canada which receive consumer goods by air and road, and hundreds of those communities are only accessible by road during winter when the ground freezes enough to maintain the roads - which is why there is no rail system in those areas (read; muskeg). That explains -in part - the higher per capita energy use compared to the US and other countries:(https://www.worlddata.info/america/cana ... mption.php)
Not to mention the long periods of time during winter when temps can hold at -20 to -30 (and colder) which require more fuel to be burned in order to heat homes and run all those trucks around the country. Idling is a necessity in order to keep vehicles warm and operational. A vehicle also needs to be idled longer to reheat once its engine has been shut off for more than 30 minutes at those temps.

Lots of city dwelling people argue that electric powered vehicles and self-driving trucks are going to replace human drivers, and use that argument to excuse the particular resistance to, and "bullying" of, the heroic alarmist kid's bullshit by the people in the counter-demonstration cited in the link above. E-powered trucks aren't going to work at the temperatures that prevail across Canada for most of the winter months. Good luck moving freight around the country with self-driving trucks on winter roads with 8 percent grades that are covered with ice, temperature extremes as elevation changes occur in the mountains, and snowstorms. Hundreds of transport trucks sitting, snowbound all over northern Canada, until spring because their batteries died in the cold and the electronic operator wasn't physically able to chain up. LOL

That's only a very narrow slice of the equation from a Canadian perspective. To have a climate alarmist try to 'shame' the energy use of Canadians is ridiculous on its face. Their message included an admonishment that countries, including Canada:
“...need to get down to zero emissions much faster so that people in poorer parts of the world can heighten their standard of living by building some of the infrastructure we have already built – such as roads, hospitals, electricity, schools and providing clean drinking water.”

Most Northern Canadian communities have only a clinic with minimal, bare-bones staff, and people with emergency medical needs are flown to larger centers for treatment. GASP!...dirty air travel! Unless millions of Canadians are willing to undergo mass displacement/migration and settle in large, centralized urban areas, the reality of our situation is that Canada needs more hospitals, reliable roads and rail in order to mitigate and/or minimize it's 'carbon footprint'. That's a real crisis in Canada at the moment. Lack of safe drinking water is also a real crisis in many areas of Canada. Any Canadian who would deny those realities of our current situation is living in some kind of big city bubble with no appreciation of how their comfysmug life is made possible.

Another real Canadian crisis is the lack of political will to shift from being a country that imports Saudi oil while we sit on one of the world's largest reserves of oil and gas, to where we're refining oil and gas to meet every drop of domestic need. That would take huge strides in reducing our footprint globally. The lack of political will to provide every Canadian with free electrical energy and low-cost oil and gas is what we should be sounding the alarm on.

On a global level, there has been no discussion of the normal variations and abnormal fluctuations in subterranean radiant heat in mountainous regions and ocean floors. The ground is warming and higher temperatures are rising nearer to the surface of the earth. That's right. If you're hearing it here first, your info out of date. Until climate science starts to look at that phenomena, they're just talking about the weather.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:12 pm

Yeah, Steve. More than 18000 posts, one would would think you know what you're talking about all the time - like this time, when you state that people opposed to the climate alarmist kid are just jealous of the attention they're getting. Yeah, envy, that's it, eh, Steve? sheesh...


Hey, thanks for the heads up. I've never noticed the number of posts, but the number doesn't mean shit. I guess lots of them are wrong. Afa knowing what I'm talking about afa Canada, you're right. I didn't know about the Edmonton meeting, and I have no idea of how she was treated in Canada or by Canadians. I gave my opinion on why people here, specifically, choose to spend time making jokes about and ridiculing Greta.

Criticizing carbon taxes or arguing that a certain solution is impractical or impracticable is completely different, and something that can be debated rationally. I don't recall whether you BruceP ridiculed her, however, I stick by my opinion of those who do so consistently. They are wasting their time because it has no effect on the issues that have been raised.

On a global level, there has been no discussion of the normal variations and abnormal fluctuations in subterranean radiant heat in mountainous regions and ocean floors. The ground is warming and higher temperatures are rising nearer to the surface of the earth. That's right. If you're hearing it here first, your info out of date. Until climate science starts to look at that phenomena, they're just talking about the weather.


Do you have any bona fides when it comes to the contemporary state of climate science? You don't present a shred of any evidence, just an assertion. If there has been "no discussion", iow, how do you know? Am I hearing it here first because you're making it up? If it has been discussed, but not by climate scientists, then by whom? ... So, there.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:59 pm

Aw, well, when she showed up in Edmonton to preach to Canadians about changing our energy use habits, it smacked of total disconnect from the reality of Canada's energy demands - and of global demands, as projected by IEA assessments into 2040 (cited in the comments section in the link below).

Yeah, Steve. More than 18000 posts, one would would think you know what you're talking about all the time - like this time, when you state that people opposed to the climate alarmist kid are just jealous of the attention they're getting. Yeah, envy, that's it, eh, Steve? sheesh...
https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local- ... ate-strike


So, what exactly did she say that you disagree with? And, is an article that starts with, "A group of oil and gas sector advocates are planning to lead a demonstration championing the province’s oil and gas sector outside the legislature Friday at the same time as a climate strike led by Swedish teenage activist Greta Thunberg," supposed to be convincing? Oh, fossil fuel companies organized people who are dependent on them to protect their interests? You don't say.

People aren't taking the "easier" route by pointing to the hypocrisy of kids' use of all the modern technologies and devices, while sucking up more energy than the generation(s) before them.


There are lots of ways to look at the numbers, but I wonder where you are getting yours. Coal burning and production is down significantly in OECD countries reflecting a trend from the 1980s that is a direct result of environmental action and innovation. Conversely, renewables and nuclear are way up.

https://www-oecd-ilibrary-org.proxy.uch ... 9962827-en

That's only a very narrow slice of the equation from a Canadian perspective. To have a climate alarmist try to 'shame' the energy use of Canadians is ridiculous on its face. Their message included an admonishment that countries, including Canada:
“...need to get down to zero emissions much faster so that people in poorer parts of the world can heighten their standard of living by building some of the infrastructure we have already built – such as roads, hospitals, electricity, schools and providing clean drinking water.”

Most Northern Canadian communities have only a clinic with minimal, bare-bones staff, and people with emergency medical needs are flown to larger centers for treatment. GASP!...dirty air travel! Unless millions of Canadians are willing to undergo mass displacement/migration and settle in large, centralized urban areas, the reality of our situation is that Canada needs more hospitals, reliable roads and rail in order to mitigate and/or minimize it's 'carbon footprint'. That's a real crisis in Canada at the moment. Lack of safe drinking water is also a real crisis in many areas of Canada. Any Canadian who would deny those realities of our current situation is living in some kind of big city bubble with no appreciation of how their comfysmug life is made possible.


You call Greta an "alarmist (I think realist might be a better descriptor)," but you seem to be even more alarmed, although for less legitimate reasons. If you had read any of the most basic policy proposals you would know that net zero doesn't mean that no one is using gas, nor does it mean that development must stop in areas that need it. With carbon capture technologies of many types already available, there is room for your rugged northerners. The only thing completely removed from all models required to keep below the predicted 2 degree increase by midcentury is coal.

On a global level, there has been no discussion of the normal variations and abnormal fluctuations in subterranean radiant heat in mountainous regions and ocean floors. The ground is warming and higher temperatures are rising nearer to the surface of the earth. That's right. If you're hearing it here first, your info out of date. Until climate science starts to look at that phenomena, they're just talking about the weather.


This is just wrong. This is a conclusion that could only be reached by someone who is unable to vet sources and has no inkling about the science. Rather than posting scientific papers, here's some easy reading (with citations for further reading:

https://skepticalscience.com/heatflow.html

So, is your claim to authority simply that you are Canadian? If so, I prefer Zoe Todd's take on how we should proceed.

http://www.disaster-sts-network.org/con ... s-zoe-todd
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby BruceP on Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 pm

Steve James wrote:
Do you have any bona fides...?


Am I hearing it here first because you're making it up?


Bona fides? Making it up?

Yeah, Steve, everyone must be as dishonest as you are, right?

I have anecdotal, personal observation of it happening over the past 3 decades.

What I posted above, regards Canada's energy use was pretty much what I explained to Mckinley in WushuChick's FuRagz chatroom in '01 or '02 when he was ragging on Canada for our disproportionate per capita 'carbon footprint'. I broached the geothermal contribution to the entropic dynamics of what was. at the time, referred to as 'global warming', because I'd already seen it manifesting in certain valley networks of the Northern Rockies. So it wasn't news to me when, a few years ago, I started reading about the same things being observed and studied in other parts of the world.


https://principia-scientific.org/the-co ... warming-2/
Conclusion

Earth’s climate is a remarkably “noisy” system, driven by scores of oscillators, feedback mechanisms, and radiative forcings. Amidst all this noise, identifying a solitary input to the system (i.e., HGFA MAG4/6 seismic activity as a proxy for geothermal heat flux) that explains 62% of the variation in the earth’s surface temperature is a significant finding. Additionally, the 1997/1998 SIENA was a strong signal for subsequent global warming, and this type of seismic jump may provide valuable predictive information. Conversely, if seismic activity gaps downward, this may indicate the onset of a cooling period. Future research clearly needs to incorporate seismic and geothermal inputs into global climate models. The climate community should also begin to explore the impacts of geothermal flux on poorly understood feedbacks, such as Antarctic glacial retreat [40], water vapor, clouds, and the release of methyl hydrates [41].

To ameliorate the problems of rising global temperatures, legislative and taxing initiatives are currently being proposed and evaluated by governing bodies around the world. Most of these initiatives are designed to curb GHG emissions. However, this study shows that we may want to delay such actions until all of the climate system’s inputs are fully accounted for.



https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6996
A new NASA study adds evidence that a geothermal heat source called a mantle plume lies deep below Antarctica's Marie Byrd Land, explaining some of the melting that creates lakes and rivers under the ice sheet. Although the heat source isn't a new or increasing threat to the West Antarctic ice sheet, it may help explain why the ice sheet collapsed rapidly in an earlier era of rapid climate change, and why it is so unstable today.


http://www.plateclimatology.com/evidenc ... -ice-melt/
At the dawn of the man-made global warming theory, many climate scientists contended that these lakes were proof that atmospherically heated ocean water somehow seeped up under the glaciers, thereby melting their glacial bases. Even today, many climate scientists, including those at NASA, still cling to this theory even in the face of vast amounts of research that do not support this theory.

Significant research from numerous universities and organizations such as the University of Texas, Aberdeen University, and others clearly shows that the West Antarctic Rift system is very active. This activity is expressed geologically as high-rift spreading rates, presence of an active volcano (Mount Erebus), and most importantly a very high geothermal flux.



https://inhabitat.com/scientists-puzzle ... -glaciers/
The heat rising from below Greenland’s surface has loosened the lowest levels of glaciers, easing their slide into the sea. “There is no doubt that the heat from the Earth’s interior affects the movement of the ice, and we expect that a similar heat seepage takes place below a major part of the ice cap in the northeastern corner of Greenland,” wrote Søren Rysgaard, lead author of the study published in Scientific Reports. The heat source is known as a geothermal heat flux, an ancient phenomenon found throughout the planet. In Greenland, the heat percolates from below the surface up through fjords, warming deep sea temperatures that then transfer this heat to the surrounding glaciers.


Another article regarding Rysgaard's work:
https://www.newsweek.com/puzzling-heat- ... ers-786943
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:41 am

oragami_itto wrote:To share something I saw elsewhere, Jason Momoa, big muscular actor who played the new Conan the barbarian, Aquaman, and a barbarian King in game of thrones, gave a speech with much the same content shortly after Greta, but you don't hear much from the broflakes about him.

There’s only one Conan, the imitators can continue stay behind the curtain 8-)
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:53 am

Steve James wrote:The ridicule is an expression of their repressed admiration.

So now we know where the Trump nonsupporters stand, ....we are all one 8-)
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:33 am

Bruce, my point about bona fides was that you seemed to be suggest that climate scientists weren’t aware of geothermal and other reasons for climate changes and glacial melting. But you cite articles from NOAA researchers. That’s way different than ridiculing Greta.

It may be true that glacial melting and ocean warming are not caused by human actions. However, in this thread, there have been arguments that measurements of ocean and air temperatures can’t be accurate, and that climate change is a myth created by people with an agenda. Warming oceans have an effect. Humans have to prepare. Ragging on Greta does nothing.

Is it likely that humans will be able to affect subterranean geological forces? Probably not in my lifetime. I agree that if those forces are the primary cause of ocean warming, carbon taxes and reducing plane traffic won’t have much effect. OTOH, the earth and the climate as we know it is the product of geological forces that have been ongoing and will continue. Climate changes due to geothermal causes are as inevitable as tectonic shifts. Humans have to deal with those changes. It is valid to question the rate of climate change and the ways it has been affected by human activity. We can discuss those issues without talking about Greta or anyone. Well, ridiculing me is fine
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:50 am

Trick wrote:
Steve James wrote:The ridicule is an expression of their repressed admiration.

So now we know where the Trump nonsupporters stand, ....we are all one 8-)


It’s true that ridicule of Trump has a component of envy. Lots of guys talked about how hot his wife is. But there’s a difference between ridiculing his hair, short fingers, orange skin, and Qi belly and criticizing his policies or laughing at his gaffs.

Yep, smiles are snarls and upside down frowns. People often make fun of things that are threats. It’s a natural coping mechanism.
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Re: A sincere hope

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:04 pm

BruceP wrote:
Steve James wrote:
Do you have any bona fides...?


Am I hearing it here first because you're making it up?


Bona fides? Making it up?

Yeah, Steve, everyone must be as dishonest as you are, right?

I have anecdotal, personal observation of it happening over the past 3 decades.

What I posted above, regards Canada's energy use was pretty much what I explained to Mckinley in WushuChick's FuRagz chatroom in '01 or '02 when he was ragging on Canada for our disproportionate per capita 'carbon footprint'. I broached the geothermal contribution to the entropic dynamics of what was. at the time, referred to as 'global warming', because I'd already seen it manifesting in certain valley networks of the Northern Rockies. So it wasn't news to me when, a few years ago, I started reading about the same things being observed and studied in other parts of the world.


https://principia-scientific.org/the-co ... warming-2/
Conclusion

Earth’s climate is a remarkably “noisy” system, driven by scores of oscillators, feedback mechanisms, and radiative forcings. Amidst all this noise, identifying a solitary input to the system (i.e., HGFA MAG4/6 seismic activity as a proxy for geothermal heat flux) that explains 62% of the variation in the earth’s surface temperature is a significant finding. Additionally, the 1997/1998 SIENA was a strong signal for subsequent global warming, and this type of seismic jump may provide valuable predictive information. Conversely, if seismic activity gaps downward, this may indicate the onset of a cooling period. Future research clearly needs to incorporate seismic and geothermal inputs into global climate models. The climate community should also begin to explore the impacts of geothermal flux on poorly understood feedbacks, such as Antarctic glacial retreat [40], water vapor, clouds, and the release of methyl hydrates [41].

To ameliorate the problems of rising global temperatures, legislative and taxing initiatives are currently being proposed and evaluated by governing bodies around the world. Most of these initiatives are designed to curb GHG emissions. However, this study shows that we may want to delay such actions until all of the climate system’s inputs are fully accounted for.



https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6996
A new NASA study adds evidence that a geothermal heat source called a mantle plume lies deep below Antarctica's Marie Byrd Land, explaining some of the melting that creates lakes and rivers under the ice sheet. Although the heat source isn't a new or increasing threat to the West Antarctic ice sheet, it may help explain why the ice sheet collapsed rapidly in an earlier era of rapid climate change, and why it is so unstable today.


http://www.plateclimatology.com/evidenc ... -ice-melt/
At the dawn of the man-made global warming theory, many climate scientists contended that these lakes were proof that atmospherically heated ocean water somehow seeped up under the glaciers, thereby melting their glacial bases. Even today, many climate scientists, including those at NASA, still cling to this theory even in the face of vast amounts of research that do not support this theory.

Significant research from numerous universities and organizations such as the University of Texas, Aberdeen University, and others clearly shows that the West Antarctic Rift system is very active. This activity is expressed geologically as high-rift spreading rates, presence of an active volcano (Mount Erebus), and most importantly a very high geothermal flux.



https://inhabitat.com/scientists-puzzle ... -glaciers/
The heat rising from below Greenland’s surface has loosened the lowest levels of glaciers, easing their slide into the sea. “There is no doubt that the heat from the Earth’s interior affects the movement of the ice, and we expect that a similar heat seepage takes place below a major part of the ice cap in the northeastern corner of Greenland,” wrote Søren Rysgaard, lead author of the study published in Scientific Reports. The heat source is known as a geothermal heat flux, an ancient phenomenon found throughout the planet. In Greenland, the heat percolates from below the surface up through fjords, warming deep sea temperatures that then transfer this heat to the surrounding glaciers.


Another article regarding Rysgaard's work:
https://www.newsweek.com/puzzling-heat- ... ers-786943


Oh my.

The first link is to a conspiracy website that has been widely refuted. The actual legitimate studies you have posted are all about localized phenomena and have nothing to do with climate change.

I hope along with other forms of development, the barren wastes of Canada begin to build universities so that some modicum of critical thinking can be taught to salty rednecks.
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