TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:28 am

None of that even addresses the political ramifications of attacking another NATO member. Incidentally a NATO member that has been a long term supplier of personnel to the Afghanistan mission and a number of other coalition efforts involving the US.


Add on to that the threatened release of large number of refugees from other nations claiming asylum.

one of the reasons the other European nations are not acting directly against them, nor apparently supporting the US efforts when asked for support.

One of the reasons the administration listed for getting out of it was the lack of support by those who most benefited from it,
the European NATO members.

Some have questioned the suddenness of the decision.
Had the administration announced it, giving a date many of the groups within the region might have used it to attack US forces, which would have delayed the withdrawal or even caused it to stop.

By some reports the Turks had let it be known that they're going to take action anyway regardless of whether the US was there or not understanding that they as a NATO member would not be attacked by another NATO member, with out going to directly to war.

No good options.
The most prudent thing was to remove US forces from the area preventing them from getting deeper into the conflict coupled with
trying to mitigate turkey's actions through other means.


i don't believe this was a sudden decision, rather one of many options that had been planned for. By action it makes the other side react instead of the us having to react
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:49 am

You asked for my opinion or what I would do.. I answered. You disagree. Ok, you asked again whether the US should go to war with Turkey, as if that were the only other option. One option is negotiation. My question was what would give Turkey the guts to risk a war with the US? I also pointed out that sending troops to Saudi Arabia seems to debunk the idea that the middle east is already a quagmire and we should get out of the region.

As for a sudden decision, what did the generals say about their input in the decision. Yeah, the Kurds were surprised. We know what they say. I did point out the military decision should be made after consulting our "allies." As it is, they weren't allies; they were tools. That's fine, but every other ally now knows where it stands.

According to all reports, Trump ordered the withdrawal after a call from Erdogan --who probably told him to boil his head. Erdogan was warned, not greenlit.

Oh, latest. Trump suggests that the Kurds are releasing ISIS prisoners so that the US will have to return. Of course, the Kurds who were guarding prisoners and supporters left because those camps were being shelled. They said they'd have to leave beforehand. Anyway, at the end he asks the same question about going to war with Turkey? So, should we go to war with NK? Well, no, but that's the wrong question, especially from the Peace Prize seeker whose unmatched wisdom makes him the only one capable of negotiating anything. Anyway,

Donald Trump has made the apparently baseless suggestion that Kurdish forces have deliberately been releasing Isis prisoners who are reported to have escaped during Turkey’s offensive in Syria.

As part of his latest in a string of attacks on Fox News – a network that has consistently been supportive of the president – the former reality show presenter attempted to defend himself over widespread criticism of his decision to withdraw US troops, clearing the way for the Turkish attacks.

Hundreds of Isis militants and affiliates reportedly escaped from facilities during shelling over the weekend, and Mr Trump said ”Europe had a chance to get their ISIS prisoners, but didn’t want the cost”.

And the president used a 7.14am tweet to say, without providing evidence: “Kurds may be releasing some to get us involved. Easily recaptured by Turkey or European Nations from where many came, but they should move quickly.

“Big sanctions on Turkey coming! Do people really think we should go to war with NATO Member Turkey?”
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:59 am

This wasn't a US mistake, it was an example of irresponsible leadership. The excuses given are simply unacceptable. I don't think that anyone who served with the Kurds wanted to leave. The fact is that Trump considers the Kurds disposable. Of course, it's easy to talk tough.


This opinion is supposed to be taken as "fact" how so?

One should ask themselves why would a general or generals , comment on an on going
operation?

My own answer would be they would not / All options are as much as possible planned for
adapting to relaities on the ground...This was planned for....probably not a first choice option.

The military leadership may not agree with an option, voicing so privately to the leadership
in most cases they would not do it publicly.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:25 am

The Kurds say they were abandoned, so that's a fact. The SoD says that we will not abandon them. What does he mean?

The Pentagon will not publicly condemn the CiC's decisions. Retired generals can. I'm not making up any of these criticisms. They've come from more than one world leader, including Israel's.

There is no way to know now whether a different withdrawal strategy would have lessened the negative results. In any case, there are results. Some people are fine with them, and it's better to know because then one can tell who would have his back.

Afa attacking a NATO member, I'd say that it's funny how being in NATO is now so important. I thought he said there was no more need for it. I'd add that if a NATO partner started rounding up Jews, it shouldn't matter that it's a partner or not. And, if Turkey was attacked by another NATO member, such as an EU coalition, the problem would be the same.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:29 pm

The Pentagon will not publicly condemn the CiC's decisions. Retired generals can. I'm not making up any of these criticisms. They've come from more than one world leader, including Israel's.


From my time in the military I would always ask officers 3 times, if what they wanted to do was really what they wanted to do, when I didn't agree with it.

When they said yes, I would salute and carry out the mission.

Not fan of officers in general. one has to wonder about the other retired generals who have a different opinion we're not asked for.

What leaders say publicly is not always what they say privately.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:31 pm

Peacedog wrote:First off people keep saying this was a sudden event. It was not. Erdogan had been openly stating he wanted to go into northern Syria to deal with the Kurds for over a year. The US had been telling him not to. We had been keeping forces in northern Syria to both prevent this and contain ISIS. Erdogan called our bluff.

I've already stated why the US will not attack Turkey. Several thousand US servicemen, and the before mentioned nuclear weapons, are on the ground in Turkey. All of that would be sacrificed to kinetically defend the Kurds. Any of which would cause an all out war with Erdogan's forces. President Trump has been equally clear that he will not do this.

As for going into Syria in the first place, it was absolutely necessary to contain ISIS after the collapse of western Iraq.

The world is an imperfect place populated by jerks like Erdogan. Sometimes we make deals with them for a greater purpose. Sometimes those don't work out. People tend to die when it doesn't.

Erdogan has a hardon for killing Kurds. A free transit zone out of the area would appear unlikely for this reason. Barring kinetic action against the Turks, I can see no course of action that would have prevented this. The US is not currently postured in the region to take on the Turkish military. None of that even addresses the political ramifications of attacking another NATO member. Incidentally a NATO member that has been a long term supplier of personnel to the Afghanistan mission and a number of other coalition efforts involving the US.

Are you suggesting the US should go to war with Erdogan?

As for dealing with those other states, you just perfectly described the difficulty in doing so. Short of military action and trade penalties very little is possible. And military action against any of them comes at a high cost. The US is the superpower. But that strength is largely the result of military action. All of which is unlikely for reasons I've already mentioned.


There seems to be a major breakdown of logic in your thinking.

The US stopped Turkey about a year ago, largely because we troops embedded with the Kurds. It was Trump's signaling and withdrawal of troops that gave Erdogan the green light.

This is yet another example of the US backing the more ideologically extreme of two sides in the Middle East. Now, we look bad and we are going to pay for it in the future.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:00 pm

PENTAGON – President Trump "went off script" during his call on Sunday with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, before he announced that the U.S. would withdraw all troops from northeast Syria ahead of a Turkish military operation in the region, a well-placed senior U.S. military source told Fox News on Wednesday.

During the phone call, Trump had talking points, according to the source: “Tell Erdogan to stay north of the border."

“He went off script," the source said.


Erdogan launched Operation Peace Spring on Wednesday morning after President Trump said the U.S. would pull its troops from the area, a move many analysts and political observers have called a blow to the U.S.-backed Kurdish forces there.



https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... rkey-syria
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:23 pm

Well, it seems that the "US" is urging Turkey to have a ceasefire. Sanctions are also being instituted. I guess the hope is that they are the "or else" to the cease fire. Anyway, urging is good, urging strongly is even better.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:13 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, it seems that the "US" is urging Turkey to have a ceasefire. Sanctions are also being instituted. I guess the hope is that they are the "or else" to the cease fire. Anyway, urging is good, urging strongly is even better.
https://www.bloomberg.com/


Sure, suing for peace is good. But people have already been raped, tortured, and killed--not to mention the escaped prisoners. And for what? We pull our troops out "to end the endless wars" but then put even more troops into a nearby country the next day. It seems to me that we should be pulling troops out of the Kingdom rather than what should be Kurdistan after what Saddam did to them and the war we wrongfully carried out.

It just seems bizarre. But, so does the defense of it coming from some here.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Michael on Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:57 pm

Regarding media coverage, yesterday and today ABC aired some footage from Kentucky 2017 gunfire and claimed it was Turks firing on Kurds over the weekend.

Image

Image

Image

Source: ABC News twitter and http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=60811
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:13 am

I was just listening to a Kurd saying that they don't feel the US has betrayed them. They say Trump has betrayed them.

Afa the media, try duckduckgo or YouTube for the latest videos.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:20 am

I was just listening to a Kurd saying that they don't feel the US has betrayed them. They say Trump has betrayed them.


Apparently they don't understand the US system of government. As president he represents the US and makes policy decisions , is head of executive Branch, is commander and chief of the nations military.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:58 am

Naw, they just know that what Trump does is not representative of the US. So, they don't blame Americans, or American soldiers, or even the US government. Thankfully, it means that Trump can't ruin America's reputation.

It's exactly the same as saying that Hitler didn't represent the German people. He just made them, and Europe, pay for his mistakes. Then, he threw Germans under the bus.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:20 am

Btw, did I mention that some Kurds are Christians or that some of the peoples in the towns being bombed are Syrian Christians? They'd even built a few churches in the last couple of years. Oh well, it's not that I think anything differently should be done because of it; I just point it out because I've heard the "Christians are being persecuted" excuse, er rationale, for military action before. It hasn't come out in the news recently.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:30 am

Trump's pullout has given Putin everything he's wanted in Syria and the ME, while simultaneously strengthening Russia's alliance with Iran (a country that is a potential enemy) and creating a new problem. "Do we really want to go to war with Russia by attacking Iran?"

Less than a week after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan ordered the intervention, Russia underlined its dominance in the region by warning of the limits of its patience with the operation. The Kremlin’s message came after President Donald Trump imposed sanctions on Turkey that left many in Congress unimpressed following his withdrawal of the last 1,000 U.S. troops from territory held by the Kurds for seven years during the Syrian war.

“We have always called on Turkey to exercise restraint and considered any military operation in Syria unacceptable,” Putin’s special envoy for Syria, Alexander Lavrentiev, said Tuesday in Abu Dhabi, where the Russian president was meeting with United Arab Emirates leaders. “Security along the Turkish-Syrian border must be ensured by deploying government troops.”

Putin has seized on the crisis to maneuver Syrian government forces into Kurdish-held territory, a major step in his efforts to restore President Bashar al-Assad’s control over all of the country after Russia’s military intervention tipped the war in his favor. The Kurdish-led authority in northeast Syria announced Sunday that it had struck a deal with Damascus and Moscow for the Syrian army to protect the northern border with Turkey after the U.S. pullout.

The agreement gives the Kremlin undisputed leadership in shaping Syria’s future, bolstering Putin’s image in the Middle East, where he’s already forged a partnership with Iran, created an oil alliance with Saudi Arabia and built close ties with Egypt’s strongman President Abdel Fattah El-Sisi. Putin has also wooed Erdogan, who defied U.S. opposition to buy Russia’s advanced S-400 air-defense system, and they have coordinated efforts to try to resolve the Syrian war despite tensions over the Kurds.

Putin traveled to the U.A.E. from Saudi Arabia, where he made his first visit since 2007, reinforcing the Kremlin’s efforts to exploit waning U.S. influence in the Middle East under Trump and his predecessor Barack Obama.

“The split screen of Trump’s shambolic withdrawal from Syria and Putin’s” visit to the region “is searing perceptions of a new balance of power in the world,” Brett McGurk, the former lead envoy for the U.S.-led coalition against Islamic State, said on Twitter. He resigned in protest in December after Trump first announced a Syria pullout.
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