James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

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James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:49 pm

Haven't had time to watch this debate, but sounds interesting.

The Game Changers
Jun 28, 2019

A UFC fighter learns everything he'd been taught about protein was a lie:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSpglxHTJVM

PowerfulJRE
Dec 5, 2019

James Wilks is a retired mixed martial artist. He was the winner of Spike TV's The Ultimate Fighter: United States vs. United Kingdom. He is also a producer of the documentary "The Gamechangers" on Netflix. Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine. Link to notes from this podcast by Chris Kresser: http://kresser.co/gamechangers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0zgNY_kqlI
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby Peacedog on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:20 pm

The show notes are well worth looking at. Very informative.

I'm not generally a fan of vegetarian diets for any number of reasons, but Kresser sums up the main issues pretty well. For anyone interested in a calm and reasoned debate of the issue, I'd strongly advise looking at his show notes.

My main criticism of most of these type of discussions is their lack of specificity. And anytime someone uses the word "health", or "healthy", to justify a given behavior I have a difficult time restraining my desire to punch them in the face as it is a term that has no meaning in the context of how to live your life. The best you can do defining the term is "an absence of pathology." Which means statements like "eating xxxxx is healthy" is complete bullshit.

What I will say regarding diet is simple, if you have good labs and an absence of pathology then do whatever the hell you want. If you have crap labs and multiple pathologies, what you are currently doing isn't working.

And none of this changes the fact that given the current state of technology, whatever you do, you are still going to die at some point. Making it to 100 years of age is a three order of magnitude difference relative to the general population and doesn't have anything to do with the adoption of a specific lifestyle. And nothing you can currently do is going to allow you to live to be 150.
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby ashe on Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:58 pm

abs aren't necessarily a good indicator by themselves as people are genetically predisposed to deposit body fat in slightly different areas of the body. Some people can have visible abs at 15% body fat and others won't have visible abs until they're below 10% body fat. In general 15-16% body fat for men and 18-22% body fat for women overall is a good range to shoot for. Not everyone can maintain good hormonal status at low levels of body fat.

At any rate, I watched about half the "debate" but lost interest halfway through. Wilks had clearly been coached to deliver specific attacks against Kresser (the forest plot point was stupid, and insignificant overall, as ultimately Kresser was correct the ONLY the US cohorts saw negative responses to heme iron but it was unfortunate that Kresser didn't know how to specifically read forest plots which let Wilks erroneously manipulate the data from that study to his advantage), but it was interesting to see WIlks use his martial arts mindset from the beginning to open the debate on the offensive and continue to press Kresser throughout.

Essentially I lost interest because Wilks refused to acknowledge that nobody at that table was disputing that plants are good for you, but that the burden of proof was on the vegan camp to demonstrate harm, from eating meat, which they cannot do. apart from selected mechanistic studies which don't hold up in actual real life, or transient effects which are normal and even desirable (like the oxidative effect of exercise as a neutral, non-diet related example).
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:55 am

I should have watched the debate before posting it. It wasn't much of a debate. Since, Kresser's position is plant based diet with some animal products is recommended. Kresser did agree he made some errors on B-12 vitamins. But, it wasn't that significant to his stance on diet.
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby ashe on Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:I should have watched the debate before posting it. It wasn't much of a debate. Since, Kresser's position is plant based diet with some animal products is recommended. Kresser did agree he made some errors on B-12 vitamins. But, it wasn't that significant to his stance on diet.
Agreed, but it looked really bad and undermined his credibility in terms of the overall debate.

Kressers debate vs Joel Kahn was actually more informative, and much better overall from both sides. WIlks demeanor and aggressive strategy is a big win for the vegan crowd IMO, though also IMO, you can see the effects of veganism setting in on Wilks already in terms of his color and body composition (though I'm willing to concede that he needed shoulder surgery very recently which also likely had an impact.)
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby Peacedog on Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:53 am

Ashe,

Just to be clear, when I said labs I meant laboratory tests (bloodwork like cholesterol, endocrine panels, hba1c, etc.).

I would change my previous statement to include: good labs, lack of pathology and body fat levels being in check.
Last edited by Peacedog on Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby grzegorz on Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:23 am

I eat a mainly plant based diet.

Not vegan or vegetarian more like the way people ate hundreds of years ago before refrigerators. I eat meat once or twice a week or have small amounts of meat for flavor like the working class Chinese.

I am probably strong as I have ever been and will be getting close to 50 in a few birthdays. I have no doubt that eating mostly plants is a game changer.

I am not against meat but think people eat way too much. I also lost 30 pounds.

Arnold nailed it! That eating meat was sold to us silly Americans as the "manly" thing to do and most silly Americans fall for it every time.

Thus the White House and the "real men" on here who spend their "adulthood" attacking Greta. -lol-
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:44 am

. However, in multiple studies the traditional Inuit diet has not been shown to be a ketogenic diet. ... Because some of the meat the Inuit eat is raw and fresh, or freshly frozen, they can obtain more carbohydrates from their meat, as dietary glycogen, than Westerners can.


. What the diet of the Far North illustrates, says Harold Draper, a biochemist and expert in Eskimo nutrition, is that there are no essential foods—only essential nutrients. And humans can get those nutrients from diverse and eye-opening sources.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby Peacedog on Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:50 pm

Windwalker,

That has largely been my conclusion over the last 18 months or so.

Most of the damage I’ve seen coming from diet really has two sources: (1) excessive caloric consumption relative to need with the culprit always being carbohydrates and (2) exclusionary diets with vegans who are severely B complex deficient being the most common.

I’m curious to see what ends up being the issue with the carnivore diet set. Although for controlling autoimmune and seizures the effects have been remarkable to date.

I will add my main issue with exclusionary diets has always been what we cannot test for versus what we can.
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby grzegorz on Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:26 pm

I agree that exclusionary diets have many issues. I once read that vegan diets almost always compare their diet to that of someone who comsumes mostly fast food and soda.

To me the issue isn't really about exclusion of meat as much as overconsumption of meat.

We had an all meat discussion here and although I can understand how a body builder might do it I don't see why anyone else in their right mind would. Better than steroids I suppose.

Seems like another way to make money off of people. I grow my own food thank you very much. I will keep my money.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: James Wilks & Chris Kresser — The Gamechangers Debate (JRE)

Postby Trick on Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:48 am

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