Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Rum, beer, women, movies, nice websites, gaming, etc., without interrupting the flow of martial threads.

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu May 21, 2020 9:21 pm

Steve James wrote:Sure, it can be done, but not long term (iinm). It's certainly true that not all patients who get put on ventilators need to be. A doctor can make that call. Then again, most people who are treated for covid-19 don't go on ventilators anyway. My point was only that ventilators don't kill people; people who are dying are put on ventilators.

If the problem is breathing, for ex., why doesn't just giving oxygen work? Wouldn't that be the choice before ventilation? If oxygen isn't working, what does a doctor do? Hey, I totally agree that being put on a ventilator should be avoided. It's the figuring out what to do instead that's the doctor's problem. I also agree that the more experience doctors have treating patients with the disease, the more likely it is that they will recognize the patients who do not need ventilation. As you pointed out, doctors in hard-hit areas are looking for alternatives.

I don't want to be put on a ventilator for any reason, frankly. Otoh, I'm not going to tell my doctor not to do it if necessary.


Ventilators actually can kill you. They increase the chance of pneumonia. But, I generally agree with what you are saying, but the point stands that docs are putting fewer people on ventilators than before, and apparently with good effect.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby meeks on Thu May 21, 2020 9:24 pm

everything wrote:Why are we (USA) nearly a third of worldwide cases and nearly a third of worldwide deaths?

Yes we can talk about accounting differences and per capita rates, but that doesn't seem good. We aren't a third of the population of the world.

This is such a low hanging fruit I almost feel like I'm being baited into a debate...but here goes ...

Ummm.... I'd hazard to say that the delayed response of our glorious leader downplaying it, denying it existed, saying it was a Democratic hoax to ruin his election... fast forward to present time and he's more focused on the personal optics of his lack of response than even now putting forward a proper response.

Leader: "Shelter in Place? That will hurt the stocks of the 1%'ers. We need to keep all industries wide open, even if it endangers workers' lives... and no one come anywhere near me... and all my staff must be tested daily... but I'm not going to ensure all others are tested because that will inflate our numbers... bad optics, you know..."

Leader: "Maybe we can all huff bleach and sit in tanning booths... that's what I heard.. people are saying this...seems like a thing"

Dr. Fauci: "opening now would be disastrous"
Leader: "That response is unacceptable"

workers: "We need to work closely with the Health n Safety industry to come up with a safe plan to re-open meat processing plants where low income workers work elbow to elbow all day not socially distanced, and in fact is often the epicenter of regional outbreaks..."
Leader: Forget the Health n Safety associations...We've worked out a plan with the business owners on how they can re-open...
workers: "wait, what..?"

Arizona: "Our specialists have determined that opening now would be disastrous"
(Leader flies to Arizona for a special closed door meeting)
Arizona: "We have new evidence that shows we should open now and it will be safe. We've fired our team of specialists. No - you cannot see the new evidence our Leader has given us"
(a few states have done the same cycle as Arizona)

Leader: "But I closed the door back in February after it was already a thing here in the USA. And I kept repeating 'but I closed the door' for the next few months while it continued to explode through the population inside our nation and still I did nothing"
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/22/trump-never-actually-banned-flights-from-china-or-/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/
Sean Hannity: "Hey it could have been worse... at least it's not 2 million"

Now he's focusing on how many lives he's saved because (eventually) he did a little bit. Yes... doing 'something' was better than doing absolutely nothing.
I'm not an Obama follower, but can you imagine what a different state the USA would be in if Obama was President during covid response?
Last edited by meeks on Thu May 21, 2020 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The power of Christ compels you!" *spank*
now with ADDED SMOOTHOSITY! ;D
User avatar
meeks
Administrator
 
Posts: 3596
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Great Lakes, IL

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Thu May 21, 2020 9:35 pm

Steve James wrote:Sure, it can be done, but not long term (iinm). It's certainly true that not all patients who get put on ventilators need to be. A doctor can make that call. .



Was thinking it was something like an oropharyngeal which we were trained to use.

Oropharyngeal airways are indicated only in unconscious people, because of the likelihood that the device would stimulate a gag reflex in conscious or semi-conscious persons.


What stuck in my mind was that as noted we where told the pt. had to be unconscious


seems they are different then what is used for intubation.
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Thu May 21, 2020 9:48 pm

the point stands that docs are putting fewer people on ventilators than before, and apparently with good effect.


Sure. I'm just saying that it's because the doctors are finding alternatives. Not being on a ventilator means one's chances of recovery and survival are excellent. I just don't interpret that as ventilators killed the patient.

Yes, ventilators can cause pneumonia (or VAP), and pneumonia can kill, but I still don't think it's the same as saying that ventilators kill. Besides, pneumonia (lower lung infection) is fairly common in covid-19 patients already. I don't think doctors would put people on ventilators just because they tested positive for the virus. There has to be a symptom to treat. Otherwise, they just send you home with some Tylenol and tell you to gut it out, and even that's a minority of people. But, yeah, ventilators can make it easier for patients to get pneumonia if they didn't have it already.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19081
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Thu May 21, 2020 10:07 pm

windwalker wrote:
Steve James wrote:Sure, it can be done, but not long term (iinm). It's certainly true that not all patients who get put on ventilators need to be. A doctor can make that call. .



Was thinking it was something like an oropharyngeal which we were trained to use.

Oropharyngeal airways are indicated only in unconscious people, because of the likelihood that the device would stimulate a gag reflex in conscious or semi-conscious persons.


What stuck in my mind was that as noted we where told the pt. had to be unconscious

seems they are different then what is used for intubation.


When you're intubated, the tube extends further into the esophagus (edit oops, trachea)than the oropharyngeal airway device you used. I guess that a conscious person could be intubated, but it'd be Deep Throat on steroids. Of course, the patient can be drugged locally and remain conscious. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work for a covid-19 patient. Then again, they do brain operations on conscious people.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtJr7i7ENMY
Last edited by Steve James on Fri May 22, 2020 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19081
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Fri May 22, 2020 6:11 am

meeks, my question was mostly rhetorical but I agree with your explanation. :'(

different topic, but same explanation probably applies to other issues such as "why are we the world leader in HS students and others getting killed randomly by crazies with assault rifles, and the leaders do nothing?"
Last edited by everything on Fri May 22, 2020 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby meeks on Fri May 22, 2020 1:38 pm

thanks Everything for clarifying.

On a similar note:

Texas, North Carolina, Arizona see rising Covid-19 cases as they reopen

and a similar page:
CDC, Florida report vastly different coronavirus testing numbers
The number of COVID-19 tests performed in Florida is far higher in data reported by the CDC than what’s reported by the state, according to a new analysis that calls the discrepancy “a cause for concern.”

As of May 16, the state had performed close to 700,000 COVID-19 tests, according to the Florida Department of Health; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that Florida had conducted more than 900,000 COVID-19 tests.

With a 33% difference between the two agencies, Florida is one of 10 states to report such large discrepancies in testing numbers, with Florida being the most extreme case, according to an analysis by The COVID Tracking Project, which compared cases, deaths and testing numbers reported by each state and by the CDC’s Data Tracker.
"The power of Christ compels you!" *spank*
now with ADDED SMOOTHOSITY! ;D
User avatar
meeks
Administrator
 
Posts: 3596
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Great Lakes, IL

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sat May 23, 2020 7:35 am

So much for the miracle cure...
Although it really is a pity - would have been good to have an existing 'simple' drug that really does make a difference.


From Spiegel Online (originally in German)
.......................................................................

Malaria drug increases mortality rate

Donald Trump recommends hydroxychloroquine as a cure for Covid-19, and the British and Brazilian governments are also relying on it. But according to a study, the drug is not only ineffective, but also dangerous.

A few weeks ago, Donald Trump described the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine as "God's gift" in the fight against Corona. The US president recently even announced that he himself was taking the medication prophylactically to protect himself against infection with the corona virus.

However, the effects of the remedy have long been controversial. A study published on Friday concluded that Covid-19 patients treated with the malaria drugs hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have a higher mortality rate.

"Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine are of no benefit in Covid 19 patients," study author Mandeep Mehra of Brigham and Women's Hospital at Harvard Medical School in Boston said on Friday. Rather, new studies have shown that patients even have an increased risk of death. The medication could also trigger irregular heartbeat.

A research team from Harvard Medical School in Boston and the heart center at the University Hospital in Zurich evaluated the data from 96,000 patients in hundreds of hospitals worldwide for the study published in The Lancet. (The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is among the world's oldest and best-known , and best-respected, general medical journals)

ORIGINAL STUDY: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

The researchers differentiated four groups: one group received hydroxychloroquine, another one chloroquine. The third group was treated with one of the two drugs in combination with antibiotics and a control group was given none of the drugs.

The mortality rate among the control group was nine percent. The mortality rate among patients treated with hydroxychloroquine was 18 percent. For those who took chloroquine, the rate was 16.4 percent. In combination with antibiotics, the mortality rate was no less than 23.8 percent (hydroxychloroquine) and 22.8 percent (chloroquine).

According to the study authors, patients were up to 45 percent more likely to die from treatment with the antimalarial drugs. "There is no scientific evidence of the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine in Covid-19. On the contrary, we observed serious side effects, especially in Covid-19 patients with heart disease, especially life-threatening cardiac arrhythmias," said Frank Ruschitzka, head of cardiology at the university hospital Zurich.

Doctors have long been warning against hydroxychloroquine

The active ingredients hydroxychloroquine and the related active ingredient chloroquine have long been used as a remedy for malaria infections. Chloroquine in particular has numerous side effects. Its effectiveness in treating Covid-19 patients has long been controversial.

Even before the study, Trump's recommendation was much criticized by doctors: Medical professor Bob Lahita was surprised at Trump's medication. He said hydroxychloroquine was ineffective. "We have found no effect, and we have used it to treat many patients," said Lahita.

Other governments are also relying on the antimalarial drug: the Brazilian government officially recommends the two active ingredients for the treatment of even mild and moderate cases of lung disease. The UK government has also ordered hydroxychloroquine to the value of £ 35 million.

Source: Spiegel Online, 23.5.2020
Last edited by Giles on Sat May 23, 2020 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sat May 23, 2020 7:45 am

So much for studies

Recent guidelines from South Korea and China report that chloroquine is an effective antiviral therapeutic treatment against Coronavirus Disease 2019. Use of chloroquine (tablets) is showing favorable outcomes in humans infected with Coronavirus including faster time to recovery and shorter hospital stay. US CDC research shows that chloroquine also has strong potential as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against coronavirus in the lab, while we wait for a vaccine to be developed. Chloroquine is an inexpensive, globally available drug that has been in widespread human use since 1945 against malaria, autoimmune and various other conditions.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/17/ ... rial-drug/

There are many cases in the US where it’s been attributed as an effective treatment for the virus.

Based on the known pharmacology of hydroxychloroquine, coupled with the emerging knowledge surrounding SARS-CoV-2 viral replication and Covid-19 pathophysiology, we were very keen to test the effectiveness of this molecule in a preventative rather than late-stage treatment setting,” said Dr Anthony Grosso of Accord Europe, a British pharmaceuticals manufacturer which has donated more than two million tablets for the NHS study.

“If drugs as well tolerated as chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine could reduce the chances of catching Covid-19, this would be incredibly valuable,” explained Professor Martin Llewelyn, the study’s British lead.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/0 ... ventative/
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 23, 2020 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 am

Lots of social changes in the name of health safety for a virus that is said to be 80% or more
Asymptomatic for most people outside the groups considered to be high risk .

IMO very dangerous in the name of “health safety”
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sat May 23, 2020 8:09 am

Of course the virus can be asymptomatic in some and yet very dangerous to others

According to his father, Jaydon Hayden was moved to the nursing home because he had COVID-19.


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/0 ... eek-later/
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 23, 2020 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sat May 23, 2020 8:54 am

windwalker wrote:So much for studies

Recent guidelines from South Korea and China report that chloroquine is an effective antiviral therapeutic treatment against Coronavirus Disease 2019. Use of chloroquine (tablets) is showing favorable outcomes in humans infected with Coronavirus including faster time to recovery and shorter hospital stay. US CDC research shows that chloroquine also has strong potential as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against coronavirus in the lab, while we wait for a vaccine to be developed. Chloroquine is an inexpensive, globally available drug that has been in widespread human use since 1945 against malaria, autoimmune and various other conditions.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/17/ ... rial-drug/


Yup, so much for studies. You have to look closer, to see what studies you're referring to. The first link you provide leads to an article dating back to March 17 - which is a long time in Covid-19 medical research these days - and appears to refer to some initial small-scale studies, although the links in the article don't work. These may be the studies based on very small groups of patients (around or fewer than 10 persons, if I remember rightly) which have since been discredited on various methodological grounds. But without functional links it's hard to say.

The Breitbart article refers to the fact that further trials are being carried out with the drug, and does not present any current results, certainly not for any large-scale studies. Please note the "if" in the British quote. Small word, big difference. Now the results of the first large-scale, peer-reviewed study are in (evaluating data from almost 100,000 patients with Covid-19) and they give a clear result, 'fresh off the presses'. The Lancet (see my link) is not a partisan website ( ;) ) but one of the world's most respected medical journals. The results can't be reasonably offset against some individual doctor saying that '(hydroxy)chloroquine has worked wonders with my patients', or against other circumstantial evidence, or against smaller studies (of dubious status) that have now been superceded. Or indeed against invocations to the drug by public figures.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Sat May 23, 2020 9:02 am

Malaria drug increases mortality rate


The UK and Australia are conducting trials among thousands of health care workers. That's quite a different population group than patients, people in nursing homes, or people with pre-existing conditions.

In NY, at first it was thought that the people who were in highest contact with covid carriers were at risk. So, nurses and doctors, transportation workers, etc, should have made up a larger percentage of patients. It was a natural prediction, but it turned out to be wrong. As the numbers showed (due to testing, etc), it turned out that those groups had a lower percentage of illness than the general population.

Ultimately, the answer was simple. Those specific groups were taking the most protection; they were the ones crying out for ppes, and who wore masks, gowns, and face shields when around carriers. They were the ones who started doing those behaviors earliest. Consequently, one doesn't hear of health care workers, police, emts, firemen, subway drivers coming down with the disease today. That is a result of what they did two weeks ago.

Giving them hydrochloroquine to prevent catching the virus is useless unless they also take off their protective equipment. Giving it to healthy people without protective equipment is a different test. Giving it to sick people is something else; they are guinea pigs. But, it might save their lives. Unfortunately, the FDA and other agencies have given the drug to sick veterans in homes and the group that received the chloroquine had a higher fatality rate.

Now, if I'm a healthy person right now, do I demand my doctor prescribe chloroquine or do I wear a mask? Frankly, if you're taking chloroquine, I think you're fool unless your own doctor recommended it. And, anyone who thinks it's ok, should really take it before they recommend it or suggest that it helps.

Of course, just like vaccines, some people will inevitably die from the drug. However, two months ago, when there were 1500 dead, the arguments are the same now when there'll be 100K. Ok, let's say the numbers are off, they are still rising. The point is that if it goes to a million, it'll only be 0.3% (not 3%) --which ain't that bad. "Look how many people die from ________ every year." Next year, we'll be counting how many people died from going to church.

A friend of mine goes to a church in the Bronx that lost 6 members. You can probably Google it. Personally, I'd even be comfortable now going out without a mask. I'd just avoid crowded places with people --for a bit. The people who left the city and are coming back will be the one's most at risk. It's been repeated several times, but until there's a treatment, nothing will stop everyone from catching the virus unless it simply dies out. Since it is not "alive," it will be carried from carrier (human or otherwise) to carrier forever.

Btw, I wouldn't take hydrochloroquine except in the hospital bed, but I wouldn't take a vaccine now either. By the time the vaccine is widely available, imo the virus will already have been widely spread and many people would already have immunity. That's a guess. But, I'd pay attention to the direction of the statistics. They can cook up 300 million doses, but I can almost guarantee that there won't be 300 million takers ... or even 329 million.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19081
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Sat May 23, 2020 9:23 am

I mean if we're safe, we're certainly all restless and bored as shit but geez people, keep some distance and wear a mask.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby grzegorz on Sat May 23, 2020 1:31 pm

Trump today...

Image
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6879
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: America great yet?

PreviousNext

Return to Off the Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests