Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Bill on Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:49 pm

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:16 pm

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -evidence/

The notion that ivermectin is a miracle medicine gives people who reject vaccines a false sense of security, says Daniel Griffin, a physician and infectious disease researcher at Columbia University and Chief of the Division of Infectious Disease at the company ProHEALTH. A recent poll by the Economist and YouGov indicated that a total of about 56 percent of people who believe ivermectin is effective against COVID either do not plan to get vaccinated or are unsure about the vaccine. But unlike the data supporting vaccines, Griffin says, the evidence behind that use of ivermectin is questionable and unclear. He worries not only that the hype over the antiparasitic drug may keep some people from getting vaccinated but also that sick people taking it at home might delay going to a hospital and miss the efficacy window for evidence-based COVID treatments.


Groups like the FLCCC, who are mentioned as sources in your article.

You posted links to studies from India from January. This is from last week.

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-o ... 2021-09-26

have dropped the use of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) drugs from their revised guidelines for the treatment of the infection.

The decision was taken after experts found that these drugs have little to no effect on Covid-related mortality or clinical recovery of the patient.

“HCQ may be considered for removal from guideline, with recommendation to use with caution only in clinical trial setting (since there is some genuine uncertainty regarding the possible benefit for severe cases and in low dose),” said the document titled ‘considerations for exclusion of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine from the clinical guidance for management of adult Covid-19 patients’.

Several clinical studies have shown the low mortality benefit for HCQ, said the document. In fact, when HCQ is administered with azithromycin, it increases the risk of adverse drug effect (ADE) in patients, experts said.


Recommending that Ivermectin be dropped from the clinical guidance, experts cited 13 systematic reviews of which “7/13 showed mortality benefit, 4/13 no mortality benefit, 2/13 inconclusive/unclear.”

Additionally, there was a high risk of bias in many of the studies, particularly with the ones showing mortality benefit, as the level of certainty is low in them.

The recommendations were made at a meeting of the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) and the ICMR national task force for Covid-19 and the Joint Monitoring Group on August 20.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:32 pm

Ivermectin, Doxycycline Dropped From List of COVID-19 Drugs by Health Ministry
New Delhi:

The Directorate General of Health Services (DGHS) under the Union Health Ministry has revised the COVID-19 management guidelines and decided against the usage of certain strong medicines for mild or asymptomatic cases of coronavirus.

According to the new guidelines issued on May 27, the health ministry has written to the doctors’ community to drop drugs like hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, doxycycline, zinc, multivitamins etc from prescription.


India Bar Association issue cease and desist notice to WHO chief scientist

According to the notice, Dr. Swaminathan has ignored the extensive studies carried out by the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC) and the British Ivermectin Recommendation Development (BIRD) showing the effectiveness of Ivermectin in the prevention and treatment of COVID-19.

They add that Dr. Swaminathan has “deliberately suppressed the data regarding the effectiveness of the drug Ivermectin, with an intent to dissuade the people of India” from using the drug.


https://joannenova.com.au/2021/06/india ... e-the-who/


On the 8th, the Constitutional Democratic Party submitted a bill to the House of Representatives by legislation that included the introduction of a system that enables emergency use of existing drugs such as ivermectin, which has been shown to be useful as a treatment for new coronavirus infections. .. We will also call on the ruling party to agree and aim for early establishment.


https://www.kanaloco.jp/news/government ... 32300.html
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:40 pm

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:44 pm

Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally.

Download the study here:
Ivermectin-for-Prevention-and-Treatment.pdf


https://www.palmerfoundation.com.au/ive ... infection/


Ivermectin is likely to be an equitable, acceptable,
and feasible global intervention against COVID-19.

Health professionals should strongly consider its use,
in both treatment and prophylaxis.


https://www.palmerfoundation.com.au/wp- ... -98040.pdf
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:22 pm

On the 8th, the Constitutional Democratic Party submitted a bill to the House of Representatives by legislation that included the introduction of a system that enables emergency use of existing drugs such as ivermectin, which has been shown to be useful as a treatment for new coronavirus infections. .. We will also call on the ruling party to agree and aim for early establishment.

The bill urgently designates 10 types of existing drugs such as ivermectin published by the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare in the "Guide" for medical institutions as corona treatment drugs. In addition to the introduction of a designated system by the Minister of Health, Labor and Welfare, insurance coverage, legislation of side effect relief benefits, and production system development

https://www.kanaloco.jp/news/government ... 32300.html

Little different take, concerning possible therapeutics for Covid.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:25 pm

windwalker wrote:
Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally.

Download the study here:
Ivermectin-for-Prevention-and-Treatment.pdf


https://www.palmerfoundation.com.au/ive ... infection/


Ivermectin is likely to be an equitable, acceptable,
and feasible global intervention against COVID-19.

Health professionals should strongly consider its use,
in both treatment and prophylaxis.


https://www.palmerfoundation.com.au/wp- ... -98040.pdf


It's amazing that this disease that has ravaged the world can be cured by a cheap and well proven anti parasitic drug that only conservative politicians (Clive Palmer, who's site you linked to, and who has adopted the slogan "Make Australia Great") have the clarity and humanity to promote.


On Japan, from September.(your article was about a bill politicians introduced in June)
https://factcheck.afp.com/http%253A%252 ... 2F9M48JR-1

The official guidance for doctors from the Japanese Ministry of Health states that "compared to standard treatment and placebo, ivermectin did not reduce deaths, shorten the hospitalization period and improve time of virus disappearance."

Japan's Health Minister Norihisa Tamura said that it is necessary to wait for the proof of the effectiveness of the drug before making any change to the guidance.

On August 4, Tamura met with the health and labour committee of the Lower House of parliament. He told a lawmaker who asked about ivermectin: "If the evidence is clearly established, we can say something," but clinical trials are still underway.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:08 pm

Dr. Haruo Ozaki, chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association recommends ivermectin for use with COVID patients.

He notes that the parts of Africa that use ivermectin to control parasites have a COVID death rate of just 2.2 per 100,000 population, as compared to 13 times that death rate among African countries that do not use ivermectin.

Similarly, worldometer.com statistics say that the COVID death rate in India (which uses HCQ and Ivermectin to treat COVID) is 32 while the COVID death rate in the U.S.A. is 6.5 times higher at 205 per 100,000 populatio


https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... tment.html

The official guidance for doctors from the Japanese Ministry of Health states that "compared to standard treatment and placebo, ivermectin did not reduce deaths, shorten the hospitalization period and improve time of virus disappearance."

Japan's Health Minister Norihisa Tamura said that it is necessary to wait for the proof of the effectiveness of the drug before making any change to the guidance.

On August 4, Tamura met with the health and labour committee of the Lower House of parliament. He told a lawmaker who asked about ivermectin: "If the evidence is clearly established, we can say something," but clinical trials are still underway.


Testing is ongoing with some Doctor's recommending it as an effective treatment


He notes that the parts of Africa that use ivermectin to control parasites have a COVID death rate of just 2.2 per 100,000 population, as compared to 13 times that death rate among African countries that do not use ivermectin.


Hopefully it will be officially approved soon.




The Story Of Ivermectin And COVID-19


https://rumble.com/vlzihf-the-story-of- ... id-19.html
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby BruceP on Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:57 pm

GrahamB wrote:Ian - a nice, clear accurate summation of everything that has gone before. You're too good for this place. :)


Yeah, except his whole gotachya is a huge nothingburger because it turns out the report I linked is 100 percent factual and does nothing to betray an "ideologically driven mania" of any kind. That sort of conclusion can only come from an overactive imagination. Talk about projection, eh. I held back the CPAC link because I knew one of you would jump on the source and ignore the content/message. Too predictable...

As for vetting information and sources, now do Graham, et al ;D Graham...-lol- At least be fair and equitab...oh right, the whole intellectual honesty thing he struggles with. Too busy being virtuous and social justicey to hold everyone to the same standard.

Contributing to this thread, I've explained in part, why there exists hesitancy, resistance and outright refusal to blindly accept vaccination by various groups in order to refute some of the stereotyping and labeling of those vastly diverse groups and individuals by some of the ignoramuses posting in this thread. I've posted relevant information that is becoming increasingly compelling and complete as more data is gathered in regards to natural immunity (antibodies) and alternative treatments. I'm not even all that wrong in stating that people aren't as dumb as the averagely intelligent would want us to believe. Heck, one of the top scientific guys participating in this discussion has stated that he agrees with some of what I've contributed here.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby BruceP on Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:06 pm

LaoDan wrote:BruceP, I am not entirely certain what information you were pointing to concerning “moving the goalposts” but I suspect it is about notifications of positive cases. While I am not familiar with health information privacy laws in Canada, they seem to be similar to those in the USA (referred to as HIPPA laws). Since people can be treated unfairly based on knowledge of their health status (especially in this age where information can be spread rapidly online), laws have been enacted to protect personal health information. I had to review this training annually even though I never dealt directly with patients (I was, however, part of the School of Medicine). Officials/policymakers need to be careful about violating health privacy laws, and balance this with the rights of the public to know information about potential threats in their communities, in this case, the knowledge of positive cases of COVID.

In our state, the choice was made to only identify “clusters” of 5 or more individuals. This choice was made because it was thought that specific individuals could be too easily identified when fewer than 5 individual cases were reported, and individual privacy would be sacrificed. Alberta health officials appear to be trying to inform the public of disease outbreaks, without violating individual privacy, but they are trying a different approach. By including ANY illnesses regardless of whether or not they are specifically confirmed to be COVID, they are able to notify the public sooner, but without specifically identifying whether those sick individuals are positive for COVID. I do not envy the tightrope that those involved with public health need to walk. You are fortunate since your officials appear to be very qualified and competent in their positions. The more interesting question (for me) that I had after listening to them was about the classification of “pandemic” vs. “endemic,” and the resulting possibility of policy changes due to that reclassification.

While the general public is not too worried about keeping personal health information private, technically it would be wrong for me to inform students that one person called me saying that they were sick and could not attend class that day. Their telling me that they were sick does not give me the right to pass that confidential information on to other people. It becomes more difficult if concerned classmates ask me why the sick person is not attending class, or if they are OK, etc. Answering legitimate questions about the status of classmates can be difficult to do if both honesty and privacy are considered. Even stating that I cannot comment, due to HIPPA laws, informs the class that the person in question has health issues that HIPPA laws apply to; even this would be too much information.


Ok, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Sorry for the belated reply.

I wanted to address the naivety and short-sightedness of the framework she discussed, and the confused message she sends regards individual privacy. Haven't had much time lately but will get back to this soon.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:25 am

windwalker wrote:
Dr. Haruo Ozaki, chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association recommends ivermectin for use with COVID patients.

He notes that the parts of Africa that use ivermectin to control parasites have a COVID death rate of just 2.2 per 100,000 population, as compared to 13 times that death rate among African countries that do not use ivermectin.

Similarly, worldometer.com statistics say that the COVID death rate in India (which uses HCQ and Ivermectin to treat COVID) is 32 while the COVID death rate in the U.S.A. is 6.5 times higher at 205 per 100,000 populatio


https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... tment.html

The official guidance for doctors from the Japanese Ministry of Health states that "compared to standard treatment and placebo, ivermectin did not reduce deaths, shorten the hospitalization period and improve time of virus disappearance."

Japan's Health Minister Norihisa Tamura said that it is necessary to wait for the proof of the effectiveness of the drug before making any change to the guidance.

On August 4, Tamura met with the health and labour committee of the Lower House of parliament. He told a lawmaker who asked about ivermectin: "If the evidence is clearly established, we can say something," but clinical trials are still underway.


Testing is ongoing with some Doctor's recommending it as an effective treatment


He notes that the parts of Africa that use ivermectin to control parasites have a COVID death rate of just 2.2 per 100,000 population, as compared to 13 times that death rate among African countries that do not use ivermectin.


Hopefully it will be officially approved soon.




The Story Of Ivermectin And COVID-19


https://rumble.com/vlzihf-the-story-of- ... id-19.html


Say it with me now, Correlation is not causation.

Sure, it's suggestive, might merit looking into whether there's a connection. That's part of why people have performed studies. That does not mean it's a cure.

Look, I'm not a scientist, I'm not even a college graduate. My understanding of advanced math and statistics is barely nil. My ability to read and understand dense technical research studies is limited. I can recognize this, just like I can recognize that if my car breaks down the cheapest, fastest, safest thing I can do is pay a mechanic to fix it.

Now, you want to build a network full of high availability web based services in the cloud, you could do a lot worse than to call me and hand over some cash. The research scientists and mechanics would be fools to think they could deploy that kind of infrastructure cheaper, quicker, or safer than I could. I challenge you to name the five pieces of software needed to support the automated deployment of that infrastructure. Open book, feel free to Google it.

Which is all to say that everybody has their shop, and experts do exist and know more about their areas of specialization than people that exist outside those circles.

This should be a pretty easy concept to grok, particularly here among this crowd. We all put in tremendous time and effort to learn about and practice a niche specialty that many lay persons have definite uninformed opinions about.

When someone tells you that BJJ is useless, for example, because they took six months of karate down at the YMCA and decided they knew more than the sensei so they started their own system and they're the seventeenth Dan grand master of futanari fist, you know what bin to file that in. A person with no familiarity with any arts might not see the problem. Maybe a few choice Chinese words and some silk pajamas are enough to convince the average schmuck that Sifu has got the goods and those worthless Gracies could stand to learn a thing or two from him.

Likewise, reading the abstract from a research paper can be similarly confusing for non research scientists. While the words might sound technical and convincing to us, I have to look to better informed and educated persons that can properly analyze the methods and measurements of these studies to determine if they meet the standards and rigor to draw definitive conclusions.

I trust the scientists. Not the government. Not the media. Not the politicians. Not the unwashed masses. The scientists.

I trust them because all they want to do, all day, every day, is to prove each other wrong. They look at a study and start looking for faults. Is there bias? Is there inaccuracy? Are the results as conclusive as the authors claim?

I don't think they're infallible. I don't think they're beyond corruption. I just think there's enough eyes on the work for the truth and worth of it to become apparent. I think there's enough motivation to falsify results that only the truth can survive.

Quick check: when I say scientists routinely falsify results, what does that mean to you? That they lie?

Well no, to falsify does mean to produce false results, but in the context of research science it means proving something is false. It can be as confusing as "theory" to the uninformed.

So what am I getting at? Very literally the Dunning-Kreuger effect is a phenomenon whereby a non specialist considers themselves as equally or better informed than actual specialists. Try to avoid the trap.

A good scientist, in my opinion, will never say never. As I quoted several of them saying, they would love for ivermectin to be proven to be an effective treatment, but there just isn't proof. On careful analysis, everything so far that has suggested it has fallen apart.

Now you can take that one of two ways.

1) a secret cabal of powerful elites is controlling a vast majority of world scientists and forcing them to suppress the use of a cheap and effective and readily available drug to treat a life threatening disease

2) science is functioning properly and studies that early on suggest promising results are put through rigorous validation and fail to pass muster

Occam's razor. Have you ever tried keeping a secret from 7 billion people?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:00 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Occam's razor. Have you ever tried keeping a secret from 7 billion people?


It's called censorship followed by propaganda.....


Look, I'm not a scientist, I'm not even a college graduate. My understanding of advanced math and statistics is barely nil. My ability to read and understand dense technical research studies is limited. I can recognize this, just like I can recognize that if my car breaks down the cheapest, fastest, safest thing I can do is pay a mechanic to fix it.



you left out doctor among other things,, 8-)

You are very biased, its amusing reading your defense of something you may be unconscious of.

Likewise, reading the abstract from a research paper can be similarly confusing for non research scientists.
While the words might sound technical and convincing to us, I have to look to better informed and educated persons that can properly analyze the methods and measurements of these studies to determine if they meet the standards and rigor to draw definitive conclusions.

I trust the scientists.


::)

That you agree with, but don't understand

At the same time inferring some type of ability that allows your non-understanding to be superior to others you claim don't understand.

So what am I getting at? Very literally the Dunning-Kreuger effect is a phenomenon whereby a non specialist considers themselves as equally or better informed than actual specialists. Try to avoid the trap.



Good, now you understand your problem.


a person admitting not understanding, telling others who they say don't understand
that they don't understand....

yep always amusing...

BTW ever worked in the medical field,
have relatives who are doctors or nurses who worked with past and present
pandemics,,,

By having done so you might understand the skepticism behind what's going on now
and be surprised by some of the views of those working with it,
who do understand the studies,.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:04 am

The simple-minded need simple things. Often, this comes in the form of specific types of narratives: conspiracy theories.

In this era of “fake news” and rising populism, encountering conspiracy theories is becoming a daily phenomenon. Some people usually shrug them off – they find them too simplistic, biased or far-fetched – but others are taken in. And if a person believes one kind of conspiracy theory, they usually believe others.

Psychologists are very interested in why some people are more inclined to believe in conspiracy theories, especially since the consequences can be harmful: for example, by avoiding getting their kids vaccinated, believers in vaccination conspiracies can harm wider public health; in other cases, a belief in a conspiracy against one’s own ethnic or religious group can foment radicalism.

One of the main differences between conspiracy believers and nonbelievers that’s cropped up in multiple studies is that nonbelievers tend to be more highly educated. For a new study in Applied Cognitive Psychology, Jan-Willem Van Prooijen at VU Amsterdam has conducted two large surveys to try to dig into just what it is about being more educated that seems to inoculate against belief in conspiracy.

For the first survey, Van Prooijen recruited over 4000 readers of a popular science journal in the Netherlands, with an average age of 32. He asked them about their formal education level and their belief in various well-known conspiracy theories, such as that the moon landings were hoax; he tested their feelings of powerlessness; their subjective sense of their social class (they located their position on a social ladder); and their belief in simple solutions, such as that “most problems in society are easy to solve”.

The more highly educated a participant, the less likely they were to endorse the conspiracy theories. Importantly, several of the other measures were linked to education and contributed to the association between education and less belief in conspiracy: feeling less powerlessness (or more in control), feelings of higher social status, and being sceptical of simple solutions.

A second survey was similar, but this time Van Prooijen quizzed nearly 1000 participants, average age 50, selected to be representative of the wider Dutch population. Also, there were two phases: for the first, participants answered questions about their education level; feelings of power; subjective social class; belief in simple solutions; and they took some basic tests of their analytical thinking skills. Then two weeks later, the participants rated their belief in various conspiracy theories.

Once again, more education was associated with less belief in conspiracy theories, and this seemed to be explained in part by more educated participants feeling more in control, having less belief in simple solutions, and having stronger analytical skills. Subjective social class wasn’t relevant in this survey.


https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/04/05/wh ... -theories/

Of course, there is an entirely next-level and blissful ignorance on display throughout this thread. Dunning Kruger is simply one of the manifestations presented by ignoramouses. The even more egregious one is what we can call the "I know you are but what am I?" response that we see over and over from posters like WW and BruceP: "I'm not projecting, you are projecting! I'm not suffering from an ignorance of my own ignorance, you are! Etc..." Sometimes this strategy becomes so ingrained that it becomes preemtive. For example, being too scared to state one's stance but calling someone a coward for doing just that.

It's transparent.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:45 am

windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Occam's razor. Have you ever tried keeping a secret from 7 billion people?


It's called censorship followed by propaganda.....



So, Doctor Windy, you're doubling down on

1) a secret cabal of powerful elites is controlling a vast majority of world scientists and forcing them to suppress the use of a cheap and effective and readily available drug to treat a life threatening disease


Again I want to point out that you've demonstrated time and again in this thread an inability to understand something as basic as grade school civics. Please forgive me for doubting your analysis of advanced research science based on publicly available abstracts.

The wise man admits his ignorance, the ignorant declares they are wise.

In the end we're both ultimately trapped in an appeal to authority.

The authorities I've chosen to put my faith in are an overwhelming majority of the world's scientists and doctors, representing governments and pharmaceutical companies and non profit organizations and humanitarian organizations, etc.

Aside from debunked studies, the authorities you've chosen to put your faith in... Every. Single. One. Can be easily found to be representing one or another fringe groups with strong ties to particular political ideologies. They also happen to stand to profit from the FUD by offering alternatives to mainstream medical treatment.

Again, I'm not a doctor, but I'm no fool.

On the one hand, the bulk of the world medical community, who gets paid no matter what, time and again find the same inconclusive results.

On the other hand, politically motivated fringe groups, who are making money off the uncertainty and are shoring up the political base with misinformation, report conclusively they've found the cure.

Pull the wool over your own eyes.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:47 am

Watched a bit of a video (it got a little boring) from an ex-Moonie who became a cult expert talking about the cult-like behavior of those subscribing to all the misinformation. His answer is these behaviors and thoughts are driven by a series of fears that are constantly reinforced by social media and others in a sort of group-think. The only way to "deprogram" them is to alleviate the fears. But I still have no idea how you do that.

Usually I'm shocked at what I call the stupidity, an incredible inability to understand how to use reasoning and no self-awareness of this bad ability, like those people who want to audition for a singing show, but somehow don't know they are tone deaf. People realize they are bad at math, but then they still have no clue they are bad at logic (hint: if you were really, really bad at math, you might be bad at logic). So my knee-jerk response of using "math" to explain to people who are bad at math why they didn't get it right won't work, since they really can't follow that kind of logical reasoning. They can't really "hear" the actual "music" and pitches and keys... I'm pretty bad at music so can relate to at least knowing I can't quite hear it all. Mostly I've given up on the logic aspect. But even people who are bad at logic and will never even know it have these underlying fears ---- just not really sure how you slowly remove those fears. What do you explain to get them "out of it"?
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