Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

[Steve James]

George Washington

ordered the entire Continental Army to be innoculated --vaccines weren't available yet.

Anyway, the Breitbart guy who's blames the libs for causing the problem by fooling Republicans (conservatives) into not getting vaccinated by promoting vaccines is fascinating. What if he's right? Is he encouraging his people not to listen to the libs and get vaccinated? Very sly.

[origami_itto]

Why is Congress and other federal agencies exempted from the mandates to private industry?.

This is something you have repeatedly shown you simply don't understand, but the executive branch is limited in the execution of its power, particularly with regard to the other branches of the government.

actually it’s something you choose to focus on ignoring or unable to understand the larger picture

They can exercise control, as an employer, over their employees. Those would be the federal agencies which I believe are subject to the mandate like the rest of the federal employees.

They can exercise control, as a customer, over federal contractors who wish to do business with them. That would be companies like my employer who have instituted vaccine mandates to align with the executive branch's policy.

OSHA, an executive agency, provides federal oversight for the most of the nation's workforce. They are empowered to pass safety regulations to protect workers from harm in the workplace. Therefore they are in a position to mandate vaccines as a safety measure.

Congress, as far as I know, is under their own jurisdiction as far as that goes. Whatever rules they pass are what they go by. The president can only call them in to work and reject laws they pass that he doesn't like (unless they're too popular).

Hope that clears up your confusion.

Confusion?

guess it makes sense for those wanting to be “ruled”

Do you understand that the administration was trying to do this as a walk around, something that they could not legally mandate?

Do you understand that once it is legally challenged, it may not be enacted.

What happens when your employer requires you to get the vaccination to work, and you suffer a reaction.
Who is libel ?

Yep , booster injections, “mandated “

Congress first

Like it or not, you are ruled. There are people with guns who will make you follow the law.

The president, generally speaking, usually follows the laws, and even when he doesn't want to there are other people in place to keep him in check. Judges and what not. I described the way the law works, not the Hollywood fantasy that some folks believe is our government.

The administration employs people that know a heck of a lot more about the law than you or I do. They felt it was worth a shot. (No pun intended)

All I know is that the one time somebody tried to challenge an employers vaccine mandate in US courts, the employer won. That would cover federal employees, and it would cover employees of federal contractors. I'm not worried about adverse effects because I understand simple math. I have a choice of where I work and I could choose somewhere else if I was as afraid as you are.

As far as I'm aware, it takes an act of congress to overrule OSHA regulations.

We all have our own acceptable risk profile, sure. I just don't see the logic behind denying oneself access to proven lifesaving medicine.

Fear and paranoia are powerful psychological factors, though. Everyone fights their own battles, I suppose.

Booster mandates? Haven't heard of that. Last I saw the white house was suggesting boosters might be good but the CDC wants those doses to go in unvaccinated arms first so it's advising against it.

Congress makes it's own rules about it's own employees. Like I outlined above, the executive branch has very little control over the legislative. As of right now, individual congresspersons are responsible for how they handle things. Democratic lawmakers have mostly followed the common sense vaccine and mask protocols with their staff. Republicans tend to choose to score political points with their base by rejecting those precautions.

[Steve James]

I'm part of the plan to make anti-vaxxers refuse the vaccines. I'm not like those who encourage free-thinking and logic. Anyway, my idea of the problem:

If it was a “ problem“ why not address it as a separate issue instead of as a Point
of contention with a post?

I posted the original; so, I wasn't contending any post. The "it" that I considered a "problem" was that Idaho was instituting crisis care. I.e., there are so many patients that they have to limit care, and it's because their hospitals are filled with unvaccinated covid sufferers. Several other states are approaching a similar situation.

[windwalker]

All I know is that the one time somebody tried to challenge an employers vaccine mandate in US courts, the employer won. That would cover federal employees, and it would cover employees of federal contractors.

I'm not worried about adverse effects because I understand simple math. I have a choice of where I work and I could choose somewhere else if I was as afraid as you are.

A difference of opinion now an expression of fear?

got it

My own interest, stems from experience with what seems to be
very similar events happening.


ok

later

[windwalker]

George Washington

ordered the entire Continental Army to be innoculated --vaccines weren't available yet.

Anyway, the Breitbart guy who's blames the libs for causing the problem by fooling Republicans (conservatives) into not getting vaccinated by promoting vaccines is fascinating. What if he's right? Is he encouraging his people not to listen to the libs and get vaccinated? Very sly.

"his people"

a strange world to live in.

And you have "your people" ?

not free people able to make up their own minds ?


If "vaccines weren't available yet"
what was used to vaccinate the troops.

[Steve James]

If "vaccines weren't available yet"
what was used to vaccinate the troops.

Obviously, the troops weren't vaccinated. You could always Google it; but, to save time, they were "inoculated" -or what they'd have called "variolated." It's an old African technique of injecting some pus from an infected person into a healthy person. It gives them the disease (in this case smallpox), but in a milder form.

So, at first Washington --a survivor of smallpox-- didn't want to do it because it would surely make a percentage of his forces ill. However, he knew that the British knew that --and might even try biological warfare-- so he decided that it was worth the risk.

Oh, the African part refers to someone named Onesimus (not the saint). Google.

[windwalker]

If "vaccines weren't available yet"
what was used to vaccinate the troops.

Obviously, the troops weren't vaccinated. You could always Google it; but, to save time, they were "inoculated" -or what they'd have called "variolated." It's an old African technique of injecting some pus from an infected person into a healthy person. It gives them the disease (in this case smallpox), but in a milder form.

So, at first Washington --a survivor of smallpox-- didn't want to do it because it would surely make a percentage of his forces ill. However, he knew that the British knew that --and might even try biological warfare-- so he decided that it was worth the risk.

Oh, the African part refers to someone named Onesimus (not the saint). Google.

How George Washington Used Vaccines to Help Win the Revolutionary War

called variolation -- was not without risks.

The vaccines we're accustomed to today were not invented

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2 ... y_war.html

Might consider the methodology used achieving the same goal

Inoculation and vaccination are two closely related terms.
Sometimes they are used interchangeably. Inoculation has a broader meaning compared to vaccination.
However, depending on the situation inoculation could mean vaccination.
In such cases both are considered as artificial induction of immunity.

[origami_itto]

All I know is that the one time somebody tried to challenge an employers vaccine mandate in US courts, the employer won. That would cover federal employees, and it would cover employees of federal contractors.

I'm not worried about adverse effects because I understand simple math. I have a choice of where I work and I could choose somewhere else if I was as afraid as you are.

A difference of opinion now an expression of fear?

Fear or ignorance, either of which are curable conditions. You mention being afraid of adverse reactions as a reason to not take the shot.

It's been definitively shown to greatly reduce the severity of COVID-19 cases. What reason other than fear of adverse reactions do you have for refusing it?

[Steve James]

How do you know when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about?

[windwalker]

All I know is that the one time somebody tried to challenge an employers vaccine mandate in US courts, the employer won. That would cover federal employees, and it would cover employees of federal contractors.

I'm not worried about adverse effects because I understand simple math. I have a choice of where I work and I could choose somewhere else if I was as afraid as you are.

A difference of opinion now an expression of fear?

Fear or ignorance, either of which are curable conditions. You mention being afraid of adverse reactions as a reason to not take the shot.

It's been definitively shown to greatly reduce the severity of COVID-19 cases. What reason other than fear of adverse reactions do you have for refusing it?

so strange....

Fear or ignorance, either of which are curable conditions. You mention being afraid of adverse reactions as a reason to not take the shot.

It's been definitively shown to greatly reduce the severity of COVID-19 cases. What reason other than fear of adverse reactions do you have for refusing it?

Never expressed a fear of getting vaccinated or not.
Have mentioned concerns that some might have for not getting vaxed,
and experiences I've had as part of a team administering swine flu vaccinations in the 70s

Back then, people weren't happy too about half the unit out of action....
considering the type of unit we were at the time stationed in Germany

What reason other than fear of adverse reactions do you have for refusing it?

Another mind reader,,,Steve should be proud.

Please feel free to post where I have indicated I refused the vaccination
Don't feel a need to state whether I've received it or not.

My focus is on policy, you and some others seem to be focused on those having a difference of opinion, ignoring
policy.


some info to consider

Biden is trying to use Section 655(c) of the OSH Act.

Why ?

Biden cannot establish that workers across the country are exposed to a “grave danger”
in the workplace from COVID-19 or that uniformly mandating vaccines and testing for most of the workforce is “necessary” to protect it from such danger.
After all, if that were the case, why did he exempt members of Congress and their staff from his program?

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/09/b ... ower-grab/

not mentioned are other fed agencies also exempted nor why 100 or less workers are used.

If it's based on "science" why would the "congress" not have to comply based on the science alone...instead of a "rule"
Why not do it based on the science

“The COVID-19 vaccination requirements included in the White House executive order issued on Sept. 9, 2021, for federal employees do not apply to the Postal Service. Regarding other vaccination rules expected to be issued by the federal government, the Postal Service has no comment until those rules are issued and we have had a chance to review them.

they will be required under the rule of 100 people or more probably will challenged in court.
If it was a good thing why would they first refuse it ?

[windwalker]

The White House conceded Monday they were not requiring border crossers to show proof of vaccination, even though the government requires proof of a vaccine or a negative coronavirus test for other travelers into the United States.

oh my,,, the inhumanity, where is the outrage.
Why are they being denied vaccinations
..
What kind of country are people living in when it's not providing adequate medical care for those in need...

30% of immigrants in ICE custody have refused a coronavirus vaccine

. https://www.axios.com/ice-immigrants-co ... 39f81.html

Guess they didn't get the word.
The new rule

"travelers to the US have show proof of vaccination."

They are "travelers" to the US.

must be a length of stay requirement in there somewhere
na that can't be right, some have been here for awhile.

must be something else....

[windwalker]

How do you know when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about?

when those who don't know ask about others who do

[origami_itto]

How do you know when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about?

Oh come on, smallpox variolation had a 98 percent survival rate, just like COVID-19. Clearly this means Nancy Pelosi is a hypocrite who is keeping ivermectin from us.

Biden cannot establish that workers across the country are exposed to a “grave danger”
in the workplace from COVID-19 or that uniformly mandating vaccines and testing for most of the workforce is “necessary” to protect it from such danger.
After all, if that were the case, why did he exempt members of Congress and their staff from his program?

Dude. Biden is not Congress's boss. He has no authority over them other than to call an emergency session or to veto laws.

He isn't exempting them from anything, the constitution is. It exempts them from his authority.

Whoever you are quoting is ignorant of the structure of American government or intentionally delivering you misinformation.

Speaking of which...

“The COVID-19 vaccination requirements included in the White House executive order issued on Sept. 9, 2021, for federal employees do not apply to the Postal Service. Regarding other vaccination rules expected to be issued by the federal government, the Postal Service has no comment until those rules are issued and we have had a chance to review them.

The postal service is not a federal agency. Postal workers are not federal employees. I mentioned this earlier. They are an independent corporation that provides services for the federal government. They are a quasi-federal agency and are not employed by the executive branch. They are not federal contractors.

They are regulated by OSHA though, so they will fall under the 100 employee policy when that goes live. Corporations as a rule don't like taking specific action (spending money, upsetting the status quo, and rushing employee turnover) until they have a specific compelling reason. The writing is on the wall and I'm sure they're preparing for it, but they aren't likely to comment publicly until a policy has been instituted.

The rules have not been issued, how do you expect them to announce how they'll comply with them? The rules must be published, then reviewed, then policy formulated to comply with them, then policy announced.

See above about ignorance or misinformation and maybe consider who you're relying on for your source of truth.

What reason other than fear of adverse reactions do you have for refusing it?

Another mind reader,,,Steve should be proud.

Well actually that's me asking you for clarification and offering you a chance to take a stance.

I've explained why the policy is likely to stand. Without drastic changes to our legal system it's the law of the land. Employers have tremendous influence over our private lives.

Whether or not the mandates influence the opinions of enough voters to make a difference in upcoming elections remains to be seen. I personally think they're the right thing to do regardless of the political fallout.

Vaccine injuries related to COVID-19 prophylaxis are claimable under the CICP, to speak directly to another piece of misinformation you've been spreading.

But ultimately the point here is that if people had a lick of sense they'd have lined up the minute vaccines were available and we'd have a lot less dead folks right now.

We'd also have less people being denied lifesaving medical care because COVID-19 positive vaccine skeptics are overwhelming the hospitals capacity to respond... Again...

But I suppose that's not fair to just assume they are idiots. Maybe they are good people with earnest beliefs who are being taken advantage of by con men who inflame their emotions and feed them misinformation to keep them from thinking critically.

[windwalker]

Dude. Biden is not Congress's boss. He has no authority over them other than to call an emergency session or to veto laws.

By using other agencies to enact what amounts to executive orders the president is bypassing the structure of the constitution.
Which is why its being done and will be challenged. Common man,,

But I suppose that's not fair to just assume they are idiots.
Maybe they are good people with earnest beliefs who are being taken advantage of by con men who inflame their emotions and feed them misinformation to keep them from thinking critically.

Maybe ?

unable to discern information...inflaming their emotions....wow sounds serious

[origami_itto]

Dude. Biden is not Congress's boss. He has no authority over them other than to call an emergency session or to veto laws.

By using other agencies to enact what amounts to executive orders the president is bypassing the structure of the constitution.
Which is why its being done and will be challenged. Common man,,

Except he's not, though. I explained how this works above. He's fulfilling his constitutional duties.

Now the constitutional process is for the other two branches to agree or disagree. Congress can pass a law specifically addressing the ability of an employer to mandate their employees be vaccinated, or striking down the OSHA regulation. If someone brings a suit to the court they could likewise rule that employer mandates or OSHA requirements are unconstitutional and therefore prohibited.

A democratic majority in both houses has trouble getting anything done, much less passing a law in defiance of a democratic president.

The courts have previously ruled in favor of employers so no reason to see why or how they could reverse the precedent. It's not like the court is a bunch of partisan hacks...

If enough people disagree with Biden's performance and decisions I'm sure they'll take it to the polls and put the Republicans back in charge and then the legislative option becomes more of a, still distant, possibility.

I am a very common man. Just a hard working father and husband. Happy to be what I am. Pretty sure I got the same vaccine the congressfolk and president got. I go out to eat when I feel like it, wear a mask in public most of the time. My liberty and freedom have in no way been infringed upon and from what I can tell even the high falutin elites are more of less following the same protocols I am. I don't see why you express so much resentment about the whole situation.

unable to discern information...inflaming their emotions....wow sounds serious

I mean, it could be. You could have people inferring conspiracies from the fact Biden has no control of congress.