Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:43 pm

Image



'Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,' said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. 'There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.'

This is a bold but highly controversial stance – especially as fears grow of a second wave sweeping through Europe. Last week, Downing Street joined the global stampede to enforce face masks in public spaces such as shops, supermarkets and stations, following Scotland, Spain and France, along with Holland's neighbouring nations of Belgium and Germany.


Holland's position is based on assessments by the Outbreak Management Team, a group of experts advising the government. It first ruled against masks in May and has re-evaluated the evidence several times, including again last week.

It believes they detract from a clear three-pronged message that has kept deaths from coronavirus down to less than half the rate in Britain: wash hands regularly, maintain social distancing of 1.5 metres and stay at home if suffering any symptoms.




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -work.html


Image

A little different in the US all one has to do is be in "peaceful" protest nothing is necessary.

Are the scientists in Holland wrong?
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:55 pm

Giles wrote:
Something I would stress here: yesterday and today I have listened to a lot of briefer or longer interviews with or statements by various demonstrators. In my view, very few of them were able to produce a logical and/or sensible argument


But one could draw some logical figures out of that 20 thousand non believers gathered and non get infected ?.......Placebo maybe ?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:32 am

windwalker wrote:Image


Well. First of all back to basics, as regards physics (and then masks).
There are two basic physical situations when it comes to (large) groups of people congregating in public spaces.
Outdoors and indoors.

Outdoors/outside: air is not trapped in an enclosed space, moreover there is quite often a breeze or wind moving the air away. Basically each person has a huge amount of air volume for themselves if you include “upwards”. In the garden, in the park, on the sports field, on the street (if not packed), on a café terrace etc. Low risk of getting a significant dose of droplets or aerosols from each other as long as you don’t stand toe to toe and face to face and repeatedly go “Haaaaaah!”

Indoors/inside: air is more or less trapped in an enclosed space unless many windows are open (and there is some kind of breeze or wind). Basically each person has a limited amount of air volume for themselves – sometimes extremely limited. In waiting rooms, in clubs, restaurants, bars, cafés, canteens, in gyms, sports halls, dojos, in public transport, in classrooms, in offices, in theater and cinema auditoriums, in enclosed stadiums, at trade fairs, in many shops etc. Depending on circumstances and time spent in the confined space, a significantly higher risk of getting a significant dose of droplets or aerosols from each other, even if you don’t stand face to face with someone. Aerosols can often build up and circulate within the space faster than they can be ventilated out.

A borderline case is presented by events with mass attendance where very large numbers of people spend hours in close proximity to each other (especially without masks), either outside or (probably more risky) in a semi-covered stadium. More hazardous regarding infection than most group outdoor activities, less hazardous than being in enclosed spaces in larger or smaller groups.

The picture posted by Windwalker, showing people sitting outdoors at café tables, is a low-hazard situation. In principle it could have been taken in many European countries. In Germany, this is how we sit at outdoor café tables, too. There is no mandate or even advice to wear masks in such a situation, although of course you can if you want. Masks are however still compulsory for public transport and for shops/stores. Many people wear them in other outdoor public space situations where there are so many people it’s difficult to maintain 1.5 m distancing.

Are the scientists in Holland wrong?

Controversial. We are talking here about one team of scientists who have been advising the government over recent months. Not about all scientists with relevant expertise in the Netherlands, some of whom disagree with the gov. advisory team. A few days ago I posted something about the political/cultural attitude of the current Dutch government as regards mask-wearing. The advisory team might be right. They might also be wrong. Or somewhere in between. Other 'relevant' scientists in the Netherlands and certainly many in other countries are of a different opinion, indeed the majority of relevant scientists globally, now tend towards the opinion of "it helps mitigate" or "still uncertain, but the potential benefits outweigh the potential harm". So are they wrong? The question as asked isn't really helpful or useful.

The first reader comment added to the Daily Mail article:
Meanwhile, in the real world, the Netherlands, with twice the population of Austria, has more than 8 times the number of deaths as Austria which DOES have a mask wearing policy. Sweden, which also has no mandatory mask wearing, has more than 8 times the number of deaths with just a million more people than Austria. But who cares? They're mostly old people right? "It is perfectly possible to ignore reality. It is not possible to ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." Neoliberal icon Ayn Rand

Not saying that this comment is 'right' either. Each country has other different factors that make a direct comparsion difficult. But it shows that no-one can currently make any definitive statements on masks. Apart from the fact that we all dislike wearing them. I certainly do, and I'm always glad to get the thing off again. Still wear in certain situations though: shops, buses and trains, other public buildings, when engaging in/teaching tuishou and sparring, even when outdoors.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:37 am

Trick wrote:
Giles wrote:
Something I would stress here: yesterday and today I have listened to a lot of briefer or longer interviews with or statements by various demonstrators. In my view, very few of them were able to produce a logical and/or sensible argument


But one could draw some logical figures out of that 20 thousand non believers gathered and non get infected ?.......Placebo maybe ?


@Trick: Please see my previous post for the comment on “borderline cases”. This Berlin event would probably be somewhere in the category “increased hazard but not major hazard” on a person for person basis. Then again, with up to 20,000 people present, and the front part of the crowd pretty much packed together, an increased risk is surely involved. “None get infected”? That will be hard to say. A fair number of people could get infected at this event but we wouldn’t know it unless the immediate spike was very high and in many individual cases can be tracked back to participation in the event. Infections are starting to rise throughout Germany at the moment anyway and it would be difficult to separate increased infections caused by this event from the general growing background rise.

All the more so because of the following two factors:
- Participants came from many parts of Germany and then dispersed back to where they came from. So there will be no clear spike in a specific part of the country; instead, any increased infections would be distributed fairly evenly across the country and might be hard to identify. This in contrast to the sudden rise in infections in Tulsa county following Trump’s (indoor) rally in Tulsa; most participants came from local areas, not nationwide.

- Even if demonstration participants do become infected or even fall ill (or worse), then here we have a self-selecting cohort that, I suggest, is significantly less likely to report or acknowledge any symptoms or illness should these actually occur, or indicate the demonstration as a possible source of infection. This for a range of ideological or political reasons. So the likelihood of any infections making it into the official statistics is probably much smaller than in most other cases.

Hence, even if there is a demonstration-related infection spike, we may well not hear about it, or only to a reduced extent. Of course, it is also possible that the outdoor weather conditions and other factors helped to keep down infections and it did not act as a super-spreader event. My point here is we probably won’t know one way or the other. It will be very hard in this specific case to say "Look, there were no infections".
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:07 am

In an operating room, the patient typically does not wear a face mask, but everyone else does. Why do you think that is? Would you want to have an operation where the doctors and nurses are not wearing face masks? Why? Why not? How does this possibly apply to the coronavirus?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:17 am

Well, if masks didn't work, nurses just wouldn't use them. Though, back in the day, doctors didn't believe that washing hands before an operation was necessary.

Anyway, somebody post a picture of any nurse after a shift wearing a mask.
Nope. It's not a matter of viral load. Nurses have a lower rate of infection than the general public.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:46 pm

It is a fact that if you maskdebate too much your eyesight will suffer.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:20 pm

LaoDan wrote:In an operating room, the patient typically does not wear a face mask, but everyone else does. Why do you think that is? Would you want to have an operation where the doctors and nurses are not wearing face masks? Why? Why not? How does this possibly apply to the coronavirus?

https://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/a ... id=2085803
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:19 am

https://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/article.aspx?articleid=2085803


Face masks are worn by all operating room personnel when treating patients susceptible to infections as in neurosurgery, vascular, and orthopedic procedures involving implants and regional anesthesia procedures (e.g. , spinal or epidural). Face masks are also used to protect staff from contamination. All personnel wear face masks when taking care of trauma patients or patients with blood-borne infections.


I think Laodan's assertion was a bit too broad, but not inaccurate. Yeah, in Sweden, face masks might not be worn by everyone in operating rooms, but it really depends on the type of operation. And, if the operating room staff there wear masks "sometimes," that means that they feel masks work, but are not always necessary.

Anyway, in this thread, the best evidence would be how the staff there deal with coronavirus patients. For ex.,

Image
Inside the intensive care unit at Södertälje Hospital during the coronavirus crisis. Photo: Staffan Löwstedt / SvD / TT


Anyway, why don't the people who don't believe how many people the virus helps kill or that masks help stop the spread of the virus just get "Do not resuscitate" medical bracelets for them and their kids? I hate hearing about these famous deniers ending up in hospitals taking up resources, when they'll die anyway. Right? (Just being sarcastic. Nobody'd do that).
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:26 am

it's so dangerous we should postpone elections. but ... kids and teachers should be in school. totally safe. :P :-\
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 am

No studies as to the Efficiency of wearing a mask according to the link.

with the HQ therapeutic the same people mandating wearing a mask request per review studies to prove the efficiency of a drug that has a lot of empirical evidence supporting it’s use for the virus.

Most people are a realist, seeing the contradictions in the many mandates surrounding this virus.
They note that all gatherings against the present administration or the government in general are ok,
those guaranteed under the bill of rights are being infringed upon in the name of health safety.

High risk groups have been identified, most safety measures as a matter of choice should be adhered to
by those most affected in the high-risk groups.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:32 am

everything wrote:it's so dangerous we should postpone elections. but ... kids and teachers should be in school. totally safe. :P :-\


amazing isn’t it ignoring what the experts are saying as to kids being in school.
As to the election, if people can protest which is a right ,they should be very easily able to vote also a guaranteed right for citizens as they normally do.

Problem?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:50 am

Problem one: the elections are rigged by gerrymandering. Problem two: polling places were closed or the hours restricted before primaries in some states, limiting the ability of people to vote.

Don't worry one bit. All those people in the street will definitely be going to the polls. Believe me. However, I betcha the results of the election will be disputed, and I wouldn't be surprised if people reject them. Anyway, this administration is doing a fine job. If only Fauci and Birx would get their acts together.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaaTZkqsaxY

Have you ever seen someone not listen.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:56 am

it's terrible we have a system for politicians to pick voters rather than the other way around (as is advertised widely and possibly widely naively believed, still)
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:28 am

Steve -
Anyway, why don't the people who don't believe how many people the virus helps kill or that masks help stop the spread of the virus just get "Do not resuscitate" medical bracelets for them and their kids? I hate hearing about these famous deniers ending up in hospitals taking up resources, when they'll die anyway. Right? (Just being sarcastic. Nobody'd do that).

I agree but only if we follow your logic and agree to test any vaccine on Bill Gates and Dr Fauci for acceptance.
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