Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:47 am

There ARE stupid people, but most people are not, and when large groups hold to similar beliefs it would be incorrect to call them all stupid. But people are also not very objective, not well trained in critical thinking, are often poorly informed (everybody is ignorant about something), and typically have numerous biases (frequently as a result of ego) that color their thoughts.

For example, if beliefs of the majority (bandwagon fallacy) determined that those not in agreement were “stupid” then one would be considered as being stupid for not believing in angels (~77% of the US population) or God (~89% of the US population). With pandemics, before science was better able to explain the mechanisms of diseases, most people believed that the diseases were something brought down by God upon the population due to their lack of faith, or their corrupt morals, etc. Many people still believe this, and I hear many interviews where someone will state that they are not worried about the current pandemic because they are very religious and that they trust in God to either protect them or to have a plan for them even if they do become sick. Is that being stupid? Perhaps, or perhaps they are putting more faith in their religious teachings than they have in scientific explanations. Science is not well understood by most people, but they often get comfort in their religious beliefs where everything that happens is part of a loving god’s plans (even if humans often cannot understand those plans). Science typically does not have the same comforting appeal since it typically operates outside of a person’s wishes or desires and stays the same whether or not the results are beneficial for mankind (no “loving” entity in science).

It is easy to call opponents “stupid” and think that one’s own views are “common sense”, but things are usually not that simple. It is more difficult to try and understand where other opinions are coming from than it is to just denigrate those who hold different opinions.

At one time in our history everybody on Earth thought that the world was flat. That was not because they (all of humanity!) were stupid; they just did not have sufficient knowledge. Understanding is based on what information is available and which sources are given more credence.

In terms of logic, one should argue the point under consideration rather than to resort to simply attacking the other side in some general or personal way (like calling them “stupid”). “Organized stupidity” can take several forms including the appeal to authority, the bandwagon fallacy, etc. These, unfortunately, are rather common in the thought process of people (which is why advertisers often use celebrity endorsements, or “four out of five dentists”, etc. to sway potential customers).
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:54 am

Hmm I agree with your thoughts on stupidity, but I'm not sure it's really that complicated.

1. you can see in school or sports or what have you some people struggle with grasping ANY thing quickly or ever. This isn't really a ding on them. It's just the way it is. We are all wired differently.
2. when they struggle, it's hard to teach them how formal reasoning, science, math actually work.
3. to get by in life, we all have assumptions and hypotheses in our heads, whether we realize it or not.
4. if you can't grasp education, SOMETHING will fill that void so you can carry on.
5. that something is probably learned from peer pressure and whatever social subcultural group you have access to.
6. if that group is filled with a lot of other people who cannot understand or weren't given a chance to learn, what happens?
7. we all get older (beats the alternative) and a lot of us who may be highly educated still get "set in our ways" and for some reason can't seem to change our minds (just look at the BTDT arguments about tai chi we have nonstop. I think RSFers are smart people, yet none of us seem to change our view in the face of really good discussions).

I think it's all that simple. If someone says "I'm not wearing a mask because I calculated the risks, etc., etc." and has some reasonable argument, it's one thing. If someone says "it's not 'Murican" or "it's against my liberty", I'm not sure they have much grasp of anything, really. Obviously it's global, not 'Murican, USA is doing among the worst, and as LaoDan points out, life is a prereq for liberty. If this counter argument has had ANY SUCCESS in your experience with people I'd probably just call "stupid", I'd love to hear about it and be proven wrong - that some reason can help some people. I'm sure all of us have A LOT of pretty stupid friends on social media, and they don't seem to change their stupid conclusions. I give up and just think "they're stupid".
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:32 am

Stupid has too many synonyms to be precise, and most people use it as a general slur about a person's intelligence. And, there's a big difference between being uninformed, ignorant, obtuse, illogical, and being unintelligent. Moreover, people can be stupid about different things because of that.

If a child doesn't know that a circle has 360 degrees, it doesn't mean that he's stupid. But, the same goes for an Amazonian Indian. In fact, drop almost any adult on this board in the middle of the Amazon without a cellphone or compass, and I bet any Amazonian would fall down laughing at "our" stupidity.

However, another aspect to consider is simple denial. There are things that people don't want to hear or know. They might seem obtuse (like Flat Earthers) because they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their position. Climate change deniers are not unintelligent.

And, then there's the Dunning-Krueger effect. You know, the opposite of the idea that "the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know." I.e., the less a person knows, the more he thinks it's sufficient. So, he uses the same argument, with the same premises, over and over. The only information or logic that he accepts is one that already confirms his original bias. Changing your mind requires thought. In ma, it's the whole "empty cup" idea.

If you ask a flat earther why, if the planet is flat, that the sun isn't shining all over the world at the same time, he will give you an answer.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:49 am

Steve James wrote:
However, another aspect to consider is simple denial. There are things that people don't want to hear or know. They might seem obtuse (like Flat Earthers) because they refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts their position. Climate change deniers are not unintelligent.

And, then there's the Dunning-Krueger effect. You know, the opposite of the idea that "the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know." I.e., the less a person knows, the more he thinks it's sufficient. So, he uses the same argument, with the same premises, over and over. The only information or logic that he accepts is one that already confirms his original bias. Changing your mind requires thought. In ma, it's the whole "empty cup" idea.

If you ask a flat earther why, if the planet is flat, that the sun isn't shining all over the world at the same time, he will give you an answer.


Yes, but it's also important to keep in mind that there are institutional and ideological supports or even origins to this denialism that act together with these "free thinkers" in a non-Hegelian dialectic that serves as a feedback loop (as detailed in the Freese book I posted a couple pages back). It's not like most climate deniers are coming up with this stuff themselves. And the few denialist scientists are guilty of exactly what the deniers try and accuse climate scientists of: climate denier scientists are mostly if not all funded by fossil fuel. The same tactics of jumping on uncertainties while ignoring the opposite is manifesting in Covid denialism and has much of the same ideological and institutional underpinnings; those being a reactionary defense of the status quo and protecting financial interests at all costs.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:48 pm

Covid denial generally follows an ideological path because it's associated with a political position. And that has nothing to do with science. Scientific opinions on the subject are not divided 50/50 or even 90/10. The problem is that the denial is based on the perception that "climate change" is part of a plot by lefties, greenies, or globalists. Generally, they also argue that whatever climate change is happening is not (or minimally) the result of human action.

But, my point was that I don't think it's precise to describe them as stupid. That's too much like a permanent, unfixable condition. Though, has anyone noticed the air being cleaner since fewer cars were on the road and planes in the air? The "con"? trails are gone. The only people who can successfully talk to deniers are former deniers.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:00 pm

Steve James wrote:Covid denial generally follows an ideological path because it's associated with a political position. And that has nothing to do with science. Scientific opinions on the subject are not divided 50/50 or even 90/10. The problem is that the denial is based on the perception that "climate change" is part of a plot by lefties, greenies, or globalists. Generally, they also argue that whatever climate change is happening is not (or minimally) the result of human action.

But, my point was that I don't think it's precise to describe them as stupid. That's too much like a permanent, unfixable condition. Though, has anyone noticed the air being cleaner since fewer cars were on the road and planes in the air? The "con"? trails are gone. The only people who can successfully talk to deniers are former deniers.


Okay, so the top bit seems like a nice agreement with what I was saying reincapsulated, but still perhaps ignoring some of the interests behind supporting these narratives of denial. You agree that the denialisms are related.

I also said that calling them stupid is neither sufficient nor accurate. Precise is another way of putting it.

As for the air, I've seen mixed reports. The air has certainly been cleaner in many places, but I have also seen some insane realtime radar location pics of planes in the air. It seems as though many of the airlines are keeping planes in the air, and have been, throughout the crisis. Regulators have also been taking time off, and as they say, "when the cat's away, the rats will XplayX dump all their shit into the streams." It has been nice to give Gaia a second to breath, although there is limited reason to believe that it will make any difference in the long run without systemic change.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:13 pm

Well, I never knew I was arguing against anything you said.

Afa the air, I can only go by my own experience when I look out the window. I suppose some may have found the air quality worse for some reason. My point was that --to me-- it seems obvious that humans have an effect. That was directed at human caused climate change deniers.

Anyway, currently, the increase in covid hospitalizations in places where the weather is warming is a bad sign. Normally, these viral outbreaks go down in the summer. Oh well, just another data point.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:07 pm

hmmmm well there's a lot of ways to define "intelligence". some argue for an idea of "multiple intelligences". so I suppose "stupid" could mean lack of quite a lot of those intelligences. but especially basic logic and reasoning. maybe it's not fair to call it fixed. but there seem to be so many who cannot take on new info, data, arguments, etc.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:01 pm

There have to be more than one type of intelligence. Logic and love require different ways of thinking. Some people are better at it than others.
Do you speak Chinese, for ex? Now, ever hear of someone thinking a person is "stupid" because he can't speak English well?

I'm not sure how many people actually cannot take on new info or data. I just think many/most people resist ideas that contradict their dearest beliefs.

See, here's the thing. How does one describe decisions that lead to

Dozens of Secret Service officers and agents who were on site for President Trump’s rally in Tulsa last week were ordered to self-quarantine after two of their colleagues tested positive for the novel coronavirus,


I also agree that if there's a major climate crisis that "can" be prevented, it won't be.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:26 pm

well we all have confirmation bias. doesn't matter how smart or stupid.

on top of lack of processing ability is some kind of lack of decision making ability. I work with lots of math (good logical processing) types, but their decision making ability seems to leave something to be desired.

if people are really bad at both and in a group with groupthink ... humans are just incredibly stupid as a group of "herd animals"

look at the "weapons of mass destruction" decision making leading to war. so many presumably smart people were involved. there was supposed "intelligence" gathered. here is one rare instance where I agree with Trump's claims that this whole thing was stupid. How can we explain this big failure? I don't really know.
Last edited by everything on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:46 am

everything wrote:look at the "weapons of mass destruction" decision making leading to war. so many presumably smart people were involved. there was supposed "intelligence" gathered. here is one rare instance where I agree with Trump's claims that this whole thing was stupid. How can we explain this big failure? I don't really know.


My take on the whole WOMD/Al Qaida + Iraq story back then:
That wasn’t so much about ‘stupidity’ in the sense of low intelligence or intellect. The top level of US government knew exactly what they were doing, it was calculated. They were putting forward distortions or even straight-up lies in order to sell a war of aggression. A war which they thought (!) would benefit the US in global-strategic/political terms. And in the shorter term also make piles of money for their (business) associates, and indirectly for themselves (well, at least that worked out fine :P ). And then some other Western countries went along with this for their own political reasons, not because they were truly convinced.

Sure, Saddam Hussein was a monster in many respects, but that was just a marginal note in the actual US decision making process.

So not so much ‘stupidity’ as a huge lack of integrity. In the long term, of course, the war can indeed be seen as ‘stupid’ from the US perspective, having created so many ongoing problems which continue to cost the US dearly. (So in the long term for the US also a failure). But it has cost the countries and above all the people in the affected regions 100 times more dearly. >:( :(
And also Europe, which has been divided to some extent by the Middle East refugee issue, which has resulted from the domino chain set off by Bush, Rumsfeld & Co.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:48 am

that sounds about right.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:53 am

Well, I think it's stupid to lose unnecessary lives for the sake of public relations or political success. There was little political benefit from invading Iraq. It didn't stabilize the region, nor did it translate into political capital. It was, however, very profitable to multinational construction and oil corporations as well as security contractors.

The stupidity of the covid response lies in that there is little value. It would have been politically "smart" to just take the crisis seriously at the earliest warning. If the so-called leftists/Democrats had called it a hoax, the entire political landscape would be different. There is no political downside to fighting for people's health.

Ah, but there is an economic cost, and calculations were made based on that consideration. It costs a lot to provide equipment, test, and lock down. However, there's the saying "Penny wise, pound foolish." Ironically, it was the economic downturn caused by the virus that led to the economic stimulus packages. And that was when the epicenter of the virus was in the northeast. At any rate, not spending the funds then, has ultimately led to the economic situation now. I'd call those decisions stupid.

Hmm, not making a backup of an important file is careless; not making a backup because a leftist said that backing up is good and you want to prove them wrong is stupid.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:32 am

And then with regard once more to 'coronastupidity' there's this from Florida: (short film, don't know how to embed this one)

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-53174415/they-want-to-throw-god-s-wonderful-breathing-system-out

Certainly the first few statements merit something like a triple face-palm. On one level arguably 'stupid' in terms of rationality, factuality, logic, but - to come back to my previous, slightly controversial posting - I think I hear a whole lot of fear, sadness, trauma and (undirected or misdirected) anger fuelling these first 7 or so statements. Does that 'justify' the viewpoints presented in terms of reasoned debate? No, I would say. But I still think it's important to sense where the nonsense is coming from. The better one understands, the more chance of overcoming chasms at some point in the future. Not so much by engaging with such people at the level of logic and reason (often a lost cause) but by addressing other issues, which may well be the 'real' issues for them.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:37 am

Giles wrote:
everything wrote:look at the "weapons of mass destruction" decision making leading to war. so many presumably smart people were involved. there was supposed "intelligence" gathered. here is one rare instance where I agree with Trump's claims that this whole thing was stupid. How can we explain this big failure? I don't really know.



Sure, Saddam Hussein was a monster in many respects,
Saddam Hussein is a homicidal dictator who is addicted to weapons of mass destruction.

George W. Bush
at one point back when Bush senior was the head of the CIA Mr.Hussein was an good asset because he was going to help the US go homicidal on Iran, his military got equiped and trained by the smart monsters of the united states....no wonder they feared him
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