Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:27 pm

Giles wrote:
everything wrote:Gates explains some of the history of where we got vaccines (milkmaids who got "cowpox" didn't get smallpox), how to measure infection rate, fatality rate, some info on COVID (more deadly than the flu, far, far less deadly than smallpox (at the time)), how to try to deploy at scale



ummmmmm, this is kind of 5th grade science class level, so it should be easy to follow


Nice simple summary of what vaccines are actually about. By the way, the word 'vaccine' derives from Jenner's orginal smallpox-preventing treatment based on cowpox. The Latin name for the cowpox virus is vaccinia, derived quite simply from the Latin word for 'cow': vacca.

-- Hey, what a great basis for starting a rumor that the real purpose of vaccinations is to turn us into cows. Which are by disposition are almost like... sheep!!!
8-)
This theory could go viral... ;D
Pan the goat has his sheeple dancing his pipe tune.... 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:18 am

Steve James wrote:Mu.


8-)
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:37 pm

Giles wrote:
roger hao wrote:Everything -
So if someone counters an opinion they get a label?

Not gonna answer any of your questions if you are gonna call me names.


I don't see anywhere on this page (corresponding to this week) where 'everything' called you names.


I don't recall calling you any names, either, unless me possibly believing you may be a "conspiracy theorist" is a "name calling" to you - but I have absolutely no idea if you are a conspiracy theorist. If you feel offended for some reason, no offense meant, but feel free to respond or not based on your emotions or conclusions or what have you.

On the idea itself, I like conspiracy theories, but some idea that Gates and others (governments?) are behind this seems incredibly far fetched, especially the Gates portion. Watch his many videos. He's a genuine nerd, very connected to the science/philanthropy/business leaders, is trying to help, shares a lot of information in digestible format. It comes across clearly. Yes he happens to have been the most wealthy 1%er, but he and Buffett are giving away the vast majority of their wealth. Gates is focused on doing this in a specific health-oriented cause. I don't see any reason it's for some kind of ulterior, bad motives. If I had billions, I would hope to "do good". If you for some reason can't see him as this person, just watch the videos and listen to the actual words/content. It makes sense. It's clear, reasoned, articulated well. There are some people who don't like or understand "reason" (not name calling anyone here), though.
Last edited by everything on Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:36 pm

everything wrote:
Giles wrote:
roger hao wrote:Everything -
So if someone counters an opinion they get a label?

Not gonna answer any of your questions if you are gonna call me names.


I don't see anywhere on this page (corresponding to this week) where 'everything' called you names.


I don't recall calling you any names, either, unless me possibly believing you may be a "conspiracy theorist" is a "name calling" to you - but I have absolutely no idea if you are a conspiracy theorist. If you feel offended for some reason, no offense meant, but feel free to respond or not based on your emotions or conclusions or what have you.

On the idea itself, I like conspiracy theories, but some idea that Gates and others (governments?) are behind this seems incredibly far fetched, especially the Gates portion. Watch his many videos. He's a genuine nerd, very connected to the science/philanthropy/business leaders, is trying to help, shares a lot of information in digestible format. It comes across clearly. Yes he happens to have been the most wealthy 1%er, but he and Buffett are giving away the vast majority of their wealth. Gates is focused on doing this in a specific health-oriented cause. I don't see any reason it's for some kind of ulterior, bad motives. If I had billions, I would hope to "do good". If you for some reason can't see him as this person, just watch the videos and listen to the actual words/content. It makes sense. It's clear, reasoned, articulated well. There are some people who don't like or understand "reason" (not name calling anyone here), though.
Ok, so I did a little nerd search on BG name - William Henry Gates - Resolute Protection, Home leader, Barriers.
It sounds as he’s destinated to be the patriotic American superhero that most want him to be, perhaps an future president....And “resolute protection”(bill) for sure signal he’s the vaccine guru of the world.... 8-)

Now I read BG pay a lot of tax, but his philanthropy actions are probably necessary for him to keep being an pole position billionaire

/covidiot
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:07 am

lolol. he's like so many nerds I know or have known except smarter and richer. I think Bill has gone farther than other ultra successful people to try to do the "great power, great responsibility" thing. To pivot from a tech career to a non-profit health mission is a good thing, especially during this crisis, although they've been at this mission for 20 years. Warren Buffett is the 3rd main director (next to Bill and Melinda). If you read all his writings, he's obviously super down to earth, a good influence on Bill, and it seems even farther fetched that Buffett would have any ulterior motives as some kind of powerful Lex Luthor like 1%er.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:50 pm

The mention of Lex Luthor actually set me thinking. So, how real-life ‘conspiracies’ or similar bad actions bred a major trope in fiction, which in turn seems to ‘educate’ us towards a general distrust of authority and/or large organizations and smooths the way for belief in conspiracy narratives. A form of belief that takes on qualities of religious faith. I think this has as least some relevance to 'Crazy shit about Covid-19'. Here goes:

1. Over recent generations, we’ve seen many real-life examples of businesses, businessmen, politicians, political parties, powerful organizations etc. that abused their power/resources for immoral and/or illegal purposes. And with specific reference to the ‘Western’ world, we’ve also seen plots and conspiracies perpetrated by governments and business organizations. Operation Northwoods as a prime example (luckily JFK was having none of it), then maybe (!!) the Kennedy assassination, the attempted Watergate cover-up, the Iran-Contra affair, possibly the nuclear power industry’s response to Karen Silkwood, Edward Snowden’s exposure of NSA activities ; in the business sphere for example, the strategic misinformation and cover-up attempts by the tobacco industry, or the recent discovery of fuel consumption test-deceiving software in many modern cars.
And surely other things we have still not heard of. But that is NOT intended to justify general paranoia or cynicism, see below.

2. Stimulated by stuff like this, the American and later also European entertainment industries (films, comics, novels, TV series) began producing many stories that, in various ways, were predicated on the idea of powerful organizations, either (elements of) the state or big business - or even aliens, or computer intelligences – acting in secret, deceiving us, manipulating us, harming us. For understandable reasons, there was much scepticism and distrust felt among people of more liberal attitudes (or libertarian attitudes, not the same thing), and this drove aspects of entertainment/art production. And many of these people were influential as authors, scriptwriters, directors, producers. Certainly, there was enough real shit from above, now being revealed through the late 60s, the 70s, the 80s, to make this scepticism and distrust of ‘power’ an understandable and even necessary response. At least up to a certain point. And after a while, this approach in art developed into a clear trope or even genre. You can easily find many examples of this produced more recently, too.
Lots of good stories/art emerged here. And also, increasingly, lots of formulaic “brave and good individual or small group struggles against evil, oppressive organization that (at least initially) remains hidden in the shadows” stories. One common meme or sub-trope is the powerful or rich figure who seems to be benevolent but is later revealed to be an evil and manipulative monster engaged in bad deeds. (The motivation for these bad deeds can vary from pure greed or megalomania through to ideology).
In a way I think this also ‘educated’ us, collectively speaking, into an attitude to the world and to ‘organizations’ that sometimes moves beyond a healthy and necessary scepticism into something like cynicism and even paranoia. Always tricky with those dividing lines, huh?

3. So there is a tendency to believe or assume that a rich and/or powerful person (or organization) will always be more of a force for bad than for good. That something nasty and stinky is surely going on in the background. Even if – or especially if – this person or organization is actually doing good deeds, working to improve conditions for people in some way, giving to charity or whatever. As said, a certain degree of scepticism, not immediately swallowing all PR uncritically, is healthy. But that’s not what I mean here. What I mean is the attitude, clearly formulated or more implicit, of “If it looks good, that there MUST be something bad going on under the surface! They’re probably doing just the opposite!” After all, we’ve all seen so many films and suchlike with this story, so there.

Although of course there is absolutely no lack of rich and powerful people and organizations that quite obviously don't behave altruistically, or that even behave corruptly, destructively, egotistically, +/- sociopathically etc. Harming people, the environment, democracy, public health or what have you. In a manner for all to see. But it's as if such entities, while maybe not being on your Christmas card list, are felt by some still not to be as negative, as despicable and dangerous, as evil, as persons or organizations that carry out large-scale philanthropy. Because, as described above, "if they seem to be working for good, then it's a sure bet they're actually working for evil. Which is EVEN WORSE than doing bad things, not being ashamed of this and saying f*** you, I won't stop."

4. This is, I believe, a major driver of conspiracy narratives/myths. They are always bubbling in the background, but in times of great stress and uncertainty (like now of course), they receive a huge boost. This has been observed for a hundred years and more, but now with the Internet they get even more rocket fuel. The narrative I mentioned above is familiar to us from a 1000 iterations (the great majority of them fictional, however!), and at the same time it fulfils a deep need we feel to restore a sense of order and meaning to a chaotic and unsettling situation. Even if this ‘order and meaning’ involves a belief in dark forces with great powers working in the background to steer us in negative ways, while these forces can sometimes appear to us in a more positive and benevolent guise. Just to deceive us all the better. Basically, once we get to the full-blown conspiracy narratives it’s belief in the Devil. Just by another name. And it really does resemble a religious belief, because no amount of logical arguments or facts to the contrary (e.g. from fact checker websites or viewing videos of what an 'evil' person actually did say, as opposed to distortions and misquotes) will change the believer’s viewpoint. Water off a duck’s back, as they say.

5. The above factors mean that if a rich and (more or less) powerful person uses their financial and other resources to actually do good things in the world, to help humanity, then this activity will be regarded pretty much automatically as not being genuine, as actually being bad (evil). Once again, a healthy element of scepticism is always okay – but this is not about scepticism, it’s about the “Devil belief” (i.e. a faith-based attitude) described above. Then untruths, distortions and conspiracy narratives about such a person will, for the ‘believers’, will become articles of faith immune to argument or logic.

As is the case with Bill Gates. I’m not a huge fan of BG, in the sense that he originally made his fortune (at least partly) by means of some very questionable business practices on the part of Microsoft. And I don’t assume that he gets everything 100% right today, either. But in the present day, I concur with Everything’s comments about Bill Gates’ general aims, practices and communication skills. The total rejection of Gates and his current work, due to the putative “evil” nature of the man and his projects, and often following on from this, a rejection or at least overwhelming suspicion of vaccination programs in general, is an “act of faith”, on the same level as believing in the Devil and his/its destructive effects on human events, or believing in God and his/its benevolent effecs on human events.

Which is a pity, because at the moment we can really benefit from the resources and efforts of intelligent philanthropists, who can sometimes get good things happening in a way that governments, as well as established orgs like the WHO and the UN, don't manage so well.
Last edited by Giles on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:12 am

everything wrote:lolol. he's like so many nerds I know or have known except smarter and richer. I think Bill has gone farther than other ultra successful people to try to do the "great power, great responsibility" thing. To pivot from a tech career to a non-profit health mission is a good thing, especially during this crisis, although they've been at this mission for 20 years. Warren Buffett is the 3rd main director (next to Bill and Melinda). If you read all his writings, he's obviously super down to earth, a good influence on Bill, and it seems even farther fetched that Buffett would have any ulterior motives as some kind of powerful Lex Luthor like 1%er.

Ah yes the Omaha Oracle, he’s there to help William with his tax sheltering...uhurmm..Non profit organizations.....8-)

Actually I know one of his(WB) china connections who in an believable manner speak of him as an likable guy .....
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:35 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaX8-Jb ... e=youtu.be
American Doctors Address COVID-19 Misinformation with Capitol Hill Press Conference


the first clip was censured


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsvDic3PB4Q


Image
https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:43 pm

If you want those conspiracy theories, just read about Erik Prince and his sister Betsy DeVos.


Made for Hollywood rich bad guys. Nearly unbelievable. But hey you can use the highest office for personal gain for your golf courses and so on, so ....
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:57 pm


Wow! They were able to find medical professionals who do not use prevention as a major factor in their practices? Don’t worry; we have treatments once you do get sick! Even if the treatments do not save everyone, well, those that die just had bad luck, because the treatments have helped some other individuals! Too bad! Are these the same doctors that people get to excuse them from vaccinations? Don’t worry (don’t be fearful) about those diseases that vaccines provide protection from, we have treatments if you catch those diseases (hopefully you will not die from them)!

Why do people pay attention to this stuff? [Note: I only listened to the first few speakers – I did not want to waste any more time with the video, but correct me if my initial impression is off base.]
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:06 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poOGJ-wH-Fw

I sat down with Dr. Simone Gold, the lead organizer for today’s #WhiteCoatSummit in DC that after 15 MILLION live-stream views, has since been censored by social media companies.

She discusses how hydroxychloroquine is an effective treatment against COVID-19 and that there is a constant smear campaign about it from the media. She also discusses school re-openings, QT Prolongation, and making HCQ an OTC medicine.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:05 pm

This "Front-Line Doctors" thing and specifically Dr Simone Gold is in the same vein as the "Plandemic"/Judy Mikovitz video. Arguments and assertions that don't hang together (non sequiturs), either obviously or on closer inspection; use of half-truths; facts stated out of context that don't prove what it's claimed they prove; emotionalized arguments and appeals to cover up the holes in logic. Judy Mikovitz was/is a prime example that a person can have some level of qualification in a specialist field and still, despite this, talk a lot of evident nonsense about Covid-19 if driven by a personal emotional and political/ideological agenda instead of a science- and evidence-based approach. Similar story here.

But if the conclusions are what some people want to hear, then the videos will be shared and applauded and reposted, irrespective of whether the arguments hold water or not.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:25 pm

Giles wrote:This "Front-Line Doctors" thing and specifically Dr Simone Gold is in the same vein as the "Plandemic"/Judy Mikovitz video. Arguments and assertions that don't hang together (non sequiturs), either obviously or on closer inspection; use of half-truths; facts stated out of context that don't prove what it's claimed they prove; emotionalized arguments and appeals to cover up the holes in logic. Judy Mikovitz was/is a prime example that a person can have some level of qualification in a specialist field and still, despite this, talk a lot of evident nonsense about Covid-19 if driven by a personal emotional and political/ideological agenda instead of a science- and evidence-based approach. Similar story here.

But if the conclusions are what some people want to hear, then the videos will be shared and applauded and reposted, irrespective of whether the arguments hold water or not.


Are you doctor and have treated COVID 19 patients?
You feel qualified to judge Dr Simone Cold's and the other doctor's findings
because?

If as you suggest they are not a valid information source why are they being censored
even their website is censored. Why not allow people to judge for themselves ?

Or is it only approved sources and voices that are allowed?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:47 pm

Back then, I did a longer critique of the "Plandemic" video without me being a virologist, simply pointing to things that were obviously incorrect or illogical even for a semi-layman (i.e. me). And what I wrote then (later augmented and improved on by critiques written by actual experts in the field as posted here by Ian) still stands up pretty well. "Plandemic" is perncious junk. Basically the answer to your question "because?" is in what I just wrote in the previous posting. Want a more in-depth examination? It's too late in the evening over here in Europe; if I have time and inclination tomorrow, and if you'd like me to, then I could write more about this new cluster of videos. Otherwise, I'd refer you to what Lao Dan just wrote here as well.

But it feels a bit like fighting a hydra, even here on RSF. One can make a string of remarks showing how arguments in videos like these don't make sense, one can probably clearly 'win the debate' by means of logic and fact-checking, but when the next video with equally dubious quality and arguments comes around, it's sure to be posted in the same way. Because, like I just said, the conclusions fit what some people want to hear - even if the quality of reasoning and the quoted 'facts' are unsound.

And some may find it just irritating if I post another long, point-by-point response. ;)
Last edited by Giles on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:53 pm

Well, GIles, here's the thing. Let's assume that claims about the effectiveness of hydrochloroquine are not simply attempts to say "See, Trump (or Bolsonaro) were right all along." Ok, but nobody has said or shown that any drug prevents catching or passing the corona virus. I.e., a person has to contract the virus before they'll even need hydroxychloroquine. I'd bet that those who believe of the drug's effectiveness won't wear masks --or will find/support reasons not to. However, both Trump and Bolsonaro downplayed the seriousness of the virus. If they were right, there wouldn't be any need for hydroxychloroquine.

But, ok, suppose it works as they promised in the video. If hospitals in Republican, Trump supporting states like Texas and Florida are not using hydroxychloroquine, it's not because they're trying to smear Trump. People are dying, and I think it's more likely that Trump would let them die than their doctors would. And, the Texas doctors would be the first to prove the drug's effectiveness.

We're going to have 150K deaths by the first week of August. But, the campaign argument will be "See, what we did saved millions of people" from the disease we said was not "worse than the flu" and would "just disappear." So, even if hydroxychloroquine works, we'll need a shitload for all the people who'll need it. That is, unless people take responsibility and ignore what's irrelevant --like whether the orange man "was" right about anything.
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