Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

[Giles]

As Steve points out:
Viruses themselves don't fly around freely in any signficant numbers, it's the Covid-19 viruses being transported in droplets and aerosols that infect. And simple masks or other mouth/nose coverings certainly won't keep back or inhibit all the aerosols one produces. But even if it's only 50% or 20%, this can still make a difference stastically, maybe in some cases reducing the viral load other people get to a less hazardous level.

As regards Peacedog's remark: "Respiratory function is definitely stressed by wearing a mask and I can't see as how that can be healthy over a long period of time like on a trans-Pacific flight."
I talked to my sister in England today, who was in hospital for several days due to a severe leg injury and infection. The standard Covid-19 test on admission revealed that she was positive, although luckily asymptomatic so far. This meant that while lying in her hospital bed and hooked up to various monitors, she also had to wear a face mask. Not one of the more high-tech ones, it was a fairly basic one but close-fitting. Certainly created a little more discomfort and unwelcome warmth, but she had to keep it on all the time. She's also quite knowledgable about things medical, and for a period of almost 24 hours she could see the monitor readout for her oxygen saturation. And for the entire time she kept this mask on, her sats remained at 99 percent, just as they would without a mask. (A couple of times her sats fell to 95 but because she was breathing very shallowly because of pain. Once she managed to breath normally again her sats were up to normal again within a few seconds.) So that would indicate that wearing a normal mask does cause any degree of oxygen deficiency.

[windwalker]

So that would indicate that wearing a normal mask does cause any degree of oxygen deficiency.

For some one who has asthma or another health condition should they wear one.



Many in different countries argue the efficacy of wearing or not wearing them has not been proven conclusively
through studies

Those asking others to wear them not based on a study, cite the lack of peer reviewed studies supporting the use of therapeutics like Hydroxychloroquine
in treating the virus for why it should not be used.

Why not allow those in the most affected groups the freedom to choose how they will protect themselves or not.
If some one is asymptomatic how would they know whether they were infected or not unless tested...why would they get tested.
If they'er not in an at risk group should they wear one.

why would one wear one going to a restaurant, take it off to eat, and then put it back on to leave?
Or as I have seen others do, sailing alone in a sail boat wearing a mask, make sense?



recent studies for HQ

Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/ ... ment-study

[everything]

the restaurant thing doesn't make sense. I think people are tired of being cooped up and want to get back to work.

there are studies showing the efficacy of different coverings blocking droplets.

but these preventive measures only make sense if done fully, not as half-measures, as Steve pointed out. our unwillingness/fake philosophies on free-dumb/inability to take full measures is very obviously leading to worse results vs. countries that too the full measures.

but it's too late / we're not going to come to our senses / we'll have to rely on science (including "non belief" in science folks) instead of public policy / individual responsibility / individual lack of stupidity.

[everything]

US Covid failures just lay bare how things have declined so badly. Mostly "individual" above all, including society, is what has happened for some/many reasons.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... s-1038206/

[windwalker]

US Covid failures just lay bare how things have declined so badly. Mostly "individual" above all, including society, is what has happened for some/many reasons.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... s-1038206/

might want to start with the beginning of how the virus started.

addresses the way different societies approached it and why some appear to have been more successful addressing it.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuIsZjjbE3c

[Giles]

So that would indicate that wearing a normal mask does cause any degree of oxygen deficiency.

Oops. I guess/hope it was clear from the context, but of course I meant to write "does NOT cause any degree of oxygen deficiency." My bad.

Wearing a mask while alon on a boat is of course totally unnecessary. Taking a mask off in a restaurant to eat/drink and then putting it back on to leave is a highly unsatisfactory compromise. Yes, statistically speaking you might as well leave it off all the time in a restaurant instead of wearing it 5% of the time when you come and go.
We (family) don't sit down indoors in any restaurant unless it has doors and windows open enough that you're more or less sitting 'outside'. When it gets colder later in the year, then probably we won't go to indoor restaurants at all until the general corona situation has significantly improved. Probably (hopefully) meaning next year.

Comparing Hydroxychloroquine to masks is apples and oranges. So many different factors and levels. As previously pointed out, HCQ can have various serious side effects, meaning that giving this drug to lots and lots of people is only justifiable, or indeed defensible, if it's so provenly efficacious as to outweigh these disadvantages. Which is not yet the case. If it is efficacious for Covid-19 (which would be great), then this may be demonstrated through clearly structured, peer-reviewed clinical trials or reviews, NOT through anecdotal evidence or gut feelings (often from dubious sources).
If HCQ were known to have no hazardous or serious side effects whatsoever, there would probably (?) be nothing wrong with lots of people taking it as a prophylaxis even without any evidence. As long as they didn't then assume that they were safe from infection and behave accordingly. Which however many probably would, putting us back to square one...
- What's not to understand here...?

As far as I can tell, there are now far more studies and expert opinions tending (strongly) towards the effectiveness of mask wearing. See for instance this fairly recent article from UCSF about efficacy of masks in prevention.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
Despite claims to the contrary, wearing simple masks does not bring any medical side effects for the huge majority of people. The fact that they are sometimes a pain in the ass does not count as a side effect. And since they cost virtually nothing, and probably do help to prevent transmission, they should be worn in appropriate situations.
- Holding out on this issue until proof accepted as "conclusive" by all (including those opposed to masks on ideological grounds) means that we're missing out on a major preventative measure, at a time when it's urgently needed.

[Steve James]

Holding out on this issue until proof accepted as "conclusive" by all (including those opposed to masks on ideological grounds) means that we're missing out on a major preventative measure, at a time when it's urgently needed.

Well, unless mask wearing is totally useless, if many people do it, at least some people will be saved. It may not be a one-to-one relationship, but maybe it'd be better to look at it as doing something for the cause, as if there were a war. It's a way of helping out the other guy for everybody's sake.

Anyway, that's idealistic, nationally at least. All lives matter. Yeah, people in "high risk groups" need people who are asymptomatic, presymptomatic, or symptomatic to wear masks to protect them. Thanks.

[windwalker]

comparing Hydroxychloroquine to masks is apples and oranges

What’s being compared is the type of validation that you and some others are using to support your viewpoints.
They don’t seem to be very consistent.

Unlike the mask there are many studies that support Hydroxychloroquine
Like the mask there is a lot of empirical evidence also supporting both.
some that do not.


Those in the most affected groups should have the choice of taking the measures they feel most appropriate.
Those not in the groups should also have the choice of taking the measures they feel appropriate, not being mandated to do so.

[Steve James]

Anyone with an oximeter (easily bought on Amazon) can simply check to see if their O2 percentage goes down when they have a mask on or off. Of course, it depends on what kind of mask, and how its worn.

However, when I raced bikes, I specifically wore a mask to simulate the low O2 levels of a race at higher altitude. So, for one thing, I know that limiting O2 for hours does no harm to any healthy person. I also know that one actually gets used to the lower O2 levels, and that the lungs actually start to function better. And, that if someone does this over a long period, it increases performance when back at sea level.

I think the body's problem is not in getting the O2, btw. It's the ability to get rid of CO2 that hinders performance. Apparently, the body's ability to monitor CO2 is disrupted in people with Covid.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04 ... gen-levels

[everything]

don't really like it (simple fabric mask) while cycling (recreationally, not racing). it is super annoying and less O2 seems like a likely reason. but a little less O2 and inconvenience in certain isolated cases is worth it if we could get shit under control and reduce cases, deaths, long term issues, etc. it's just not going to happen b/c of "stupidity" (sorry but the behaviors and arguments are just plain stupid. we've been over it rationally as if there are good arguments, but there aren't).

[Steve James]

Afa cycling, I've gotten used to wearing the paper mask while riding. I'd say that my original discomfort was more psychological than biological. Yeah, if I were racing, it wouldn't make sense to wear it. I think being around so many riders before and after the race would be more likely places to pick up the virus.

I dunno. Do you follow pro-cycling? Milano-San Remo was today, and no cyclists wore masks. Anyway, it's still my opinion that it's about CO2 removal more than O2 uptake. I would also argue that exercises stressing the cardio-vascular system will be helpful because of that. The body demands and puts more effort into O2 usage when CO2 levels go up. For some reason, the coronavirus affects "some" people by limiting their bodies' ability to register high CO2 levels; so, their O2 level decline, but they don't know. That's why oximeters are (can be) useful. If you see a reading in the 80s, but you feel alright, call your doctor. I know some people who've bought O2 generators.

Hey, the best long distance runners live or grew up at high altitude. In cycling, the Colombians and other Andean riders are starting to become forces. Last year's TdF was won by a young Colombian, Egon Bernal. Remember the 90s, and the "blood doping" scandals? Guys would train at high altitude, then draw their highly oxygenated blood. When race time came at lower altitude, they'd infuse a few pints.

[everything]

oh wow i didn't know about that self blood infusion scandal. it seems pretty genius.

i don't follow any cycling. i did recreational cycling in boulder once, but don't remember how different i felt with the higher altitude. i just remember dudes with arnold sized legs and table tennis player upper bodies going by so fast. never saw anything like that before or since.

talking about O2 or Mars, it occurs to me there is some kind of covidiot fallacy in which - because we want equal rights and individual freedoms, and to have one vote that matters - maybe we get confused and think everyone's and anyone's opinion is equally important or worthwhile. and of course we know somebody else knows more about mars or ima or O2 or any other topic, yet people seem to think they can make their own conclusions (well they have to) that are as equally valid when they don't know they don't know. that combined with individual above society, and well, that article i posted articulates the conclusions better.

[Peacedog]

A pulse oximeter is a very handy piece of equipment. Inexpensive these days too.

What is really crazy is you can now get a six lead EKG for your smartphone. I have no idea how they got this past the FDA, but it is both a great and fun little tool.

https://www.alivecor.com/kardiamobile6l/

[Steve James]

A pulse oximeter is a very handy piece of equipment. Inexpensive these days too.

What is really crazy is you can now get a six lead EKG for your smartphone. I have no idea how they got this past the FDA, but it is both a great and fun little tool.

https://www.alivecor.com/kardiamobile6l/

That's really interesting. You can get a readout and send it to your doc, or an emergency service.

[Peacedog]

Yes, both in fact.

For a small fee you can get a board certified doctor to do the evaluation within an hour.