Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:06 am

windwalker wrote:@ Giles,

reviewed by their medical authorities

The Dutch government on Wednesday advised the public not to wear masks to slow the spread of coronavirus, cautioning their effectiveness remains unproven.

The Minister for Medical Care Tamara van Ark made the decision after a review by the country’s National Institute for Health (RIVM).


Because from a medical perspective there is no proven effectiveness of masks, the Cabinet has decided that there will be no national obligation for wearing non-medical masks” Van Ark said.

RIVM chief Jaap van Dissel cited studies that show masks help slow the spread of disease but remained unconvinced they will do anything to counter coronavirus outbreak in the Netherlands.


Is it correct


I checked this out because it interested me personally. I live in Germany, but I lived in the Netherlands for a few years and speak Dutch, also do a lot of translation work for Dutch clients, so I could read a few reliable newspaper articles to find out more.
The report you quote is skewed in one small but very significant detail. It is false that the Dutch government has “advised the people not to wear masks”, a formulation in the report that distorts the actual situation. Instead, they declined to issue a clear recommendation that people should wear masks. The important difference should be clear.

According to my quick research, the current Dutch government and its advisory panel of scientists have concluded that currently "there is no reason for an overriding obligation based on scientific knowledge." Nonetheless, the Dutch government has already made the wearing of face masks compulsory on public transport. It seems that relates also to political/ideological attitudes with the predominantly “conservative-liberal” cabinet. The prime minister, Mark Rutte, has previously said – I paraphrase slightly – that the Dutch are a ‘down-to-earth people’ and that face masks should ultimately be a matter of personal choice. Hence, as it seems to me, on the basis of such thinking the government is unwilling to make face masks mandatory in more environments without more clear evidence of their effectiveness. They do not believe that face masks are harmful; they feel insufficiently sure that they are useful.

However, the great majority of other European governments are generally taking the attitude: it still isn’t certain just how effective they are in practice, and this is also very hard to prove under realistic conditions, but despite this there are enough - and increasing - indications that they have at least some effectiveness, if not indeed significant effectiveness, so the (potential) benefits outweigh the objections. Germany, my home, is comparatively ‘liberal’ in this respect and there is no obligation to wear masks when outside on the street as long as you’re not standing in a tight crowd. But when you enter public transport or enclosed public spaces, then you are required to put one on.
And a survey showed last week that a majority of the Dutch support a face mask obligation in public indoor areas.

A leading Dutch field epidemiologist and microbiologist said in response to the latest government decision: "The exact effectiveness is difficult to measure, but a mouth mask always filters at least a fraction of the drops on both sides. Whether this fraction is 5 or 50 percent depends on the context. But even if it is just 5 percent, this is still 5 percent. Let's apply the precautionary principle.”
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:20 am

Just quickly. Basic mutual human respect remains a good thing, no matter how much we may disagree or indeed jump on each other's arguments. So yes.

windwalker wrote:@ Giles

acupuncture, are there any recent scientific peer reviewed studies by medical doctors that support acupuncture as a treatment.


I don't know. I am not an acupuncturist, but speaking as a tai chi practitioner and teacher of 25 years and a naturopath working with craniosacral therapy, I would never dream of recommending or relying on acupuncture (or indeed craniosacral therapy) as a curative or (main) prophylaxis for Covid-19. If I were to meet an acupuncturist or a craniosacral guy who said anything along the lines of: "Don't social distance, don't wear a mask in the bus or train, don't wash your hands, don't go to hospital if you develop serious symptoms, don't get vaccinated against flu (or Covid-19, if we get an effective vaccine later on) because that is dangerous and/or totally ineffective etc. - but maybe be treated by me instead" then I would regard him as a harmful individual who should not be allowed to retain his official naturopath status.

Not a supporter or detractor only pointing out the empirical findings by some doctors and their patients that found benefit from using it off use” as another therapeutic.


The sticking point there is "empirical". On the basis of other statements by said doctors, as previously described, I have my doubts about whether their findings are honestly empirical at all. This is exactly what would be established by stringent peer review of their findings and recording methods. Until such a point -- and also considering that the "sensory input" and "practical experience" of one of the leading lights of this doctor group includes working with, or against, alien DNA and evil spirits -- then I'm afraid I have precious little confidence in their empiricism as a measure of sound scientific approach.
Last edited by Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:55 am

I dunno. It seems like the only debate is whether masks should be mandated, not whether they work. For example, is it still recommended that people cover their mouths or noses when they sneeze or cough? They're not mandated, but that doesn't mean they aren't effective.

It should not be necessary to mandate mask wearing. However, what people "should" do is a matter of their sense of duty or obligation to others. It's like covering your mouth or nose. It doesn't almost nothing for you --except that you probably care for those around you.

So, argue, but cover your mouth anyway.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:05 am


I don't know. I am not an acupuncturist, but speaking as a tai chi practitioner and teacher of 25 years and a naturopath working with craniosacral therapy, I would never dream of recommending or relying on acupuncture (or indeed craniosacral therapy) as a curative or (main) prophylaxis for Covid-19.


Interesting, there are no scientific peer review studies that I’ve read that support acupuncture indeed most cite it as being ineffective or not effective as a treatment, does not support the many claims made about it as a treatment for other medical problems.

Taiji, kind of falls into the same realm, as there are no clear examples of it in use that support its effectiveness as a Combative art.

Both use empirical evidence supporting their claims as their primary validation.

Information on them has not been censored, although both of them can be dangerous either to the patient or practitioner if relied on for the claims that have yet to be substantiated.

From what I’ve read there are many drugs that are used off label, that have shown effectiveness by those who prescribe them and others who are treated by them.

In the 70s, as an Army medic we administered the vaccine for H1n1. Lots of severe health problems vaccine at that time was discontinued in the same year. The move to use it as a vaccine from what I’ve read was based on political considerations. It would seem that the use of HQ is also based on those same considerations that changes as those in gov respond accordingly to the demands of their base for access to a therapeutic that may be beneficial.

Had it not been mentioned or promoted as a possible therapeutic by the current administration
One has to wonder as to whether we would be having this discussion now. There are other therapeutics out there that may benefit people That have not drawn as much controversy not mentioned by the present administration.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:47 am

windwalker wrote:
Afa covid, though, we've passed 150 dead human beings. Right now, imo, better safe than sorry --for the sake of the ill and elderly.


The law allows for abortions, what about those who have yet to be born.
For the sake of them, should something be done.

Quoting numbers of dead people.
Is it supposed to mean something.

Whether one agree with abortions or not do you know how many have been performed last year and this year.

Could be wrong,
Doesn’t seem like you really care about the death of Human beings as mentioned , Not all of them.

Do you?

I’m not certain how talk about COVID-19 deaths brought up abortion deaths, but here is a different perspective from the typical religious/moral stance commonly proffered by the religious community and conservative politicians. But since abortion was brought up...

There are so many humans on Earth that our population (at least as we currently behave) is harming the planet significantly enough that people and other organisms are being harmed. Therefore it could be viewed as being immoral to continue increasing the human population on this planet. For that reason, it seems like we should try to ensure that access to abortions is readily available (and as safe as medically possible). People who do not really want to become parents, for whatever reason, should be encouraged to seek abortion rather than to carry the pregnancy to term. When birth control fails, abortion should be an option.

For those who equate abortions with killing young innocents who have no say in the matter, then there are additional arguments that could be made. First, an embryo or fetus could be considered a parasite (feeding off of the host mother) until it is born. But that may be considered too extreme a viewpoint, so there are others. While the safety of the fetus is typically taken into account, carrying the fetus to term can not only be an additional insult to the planet, it can also harm the mother and their family. Women still die from complications during pregnancy and birth, and families can be harmed financially and emotionally such that their health and welfare can suffer long term damage.

Still not convincing? How about this: There are numerous instances where a fertilized embryo fails to implant, as well as numerous miscarriages and still births. Those who believe in God, and that God has a plan for all situations, should therefore assume that these situations are God’s will. But failure to implant as well as miscarriages and still births are all failures to carry that life to birth, and are essentially the same as abortions. God’s abortions. If God is responsible for so many abortions, why should mere humans be prohibited from following God’s example?

This is a perspective that differs from the predominant viewpoint (and may even be “interesting” to some), so it should be allowed to be expressed even if the majority of society does not agree, shouldn’t it?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:56 am

I cannot understand the insistence that Hydroxychloroquine should be considered to be an effective treatment for COVID-19, despite the predominance of evidence to the contrary. Is it just political, because Trump stated that it was an effective treatment, that he personally used, and Trump can never be seen to be wrong?

Yes, drugs are often prescribed for non approved situations, but when the majority of studies indicate that HCQ is ineffective for that use, and that it can potentially cause harm to some patients, and that widespread usage for unapproved and ineffective uses (e.g., COVID-19) leads to shortages of that drug for its intended purposes, then there is a problem.

It is not that people are stating that there is no effective drug treatment for COVID-19, because studies DO indicate that Remdesivir could be used to help in the treatment of COVID-19. Note that Remdesivir (an investigational nucleotide analog with broad antiviral activity) IS NOT APPROVED globally for any use! Still, even though it is not approved for usage, it is being allowed to be prescribed for COVID-19 patients.

So, what is the difference between how Remdesivir and HCQ are being portrayed? HCQ has been politicized by Trump supporters!
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:33 am

@ Giles,

Good example of how it’s portrayed

HCQ has been politicized by Trump supporters!


Along with other rationale talking about relativity of death vs a virus over a choice.
A sudden concern by some here citing numbers of deaths for something not human caused,
Versus something that is accepted as a humans right over control of their bodies, ok by some not by others
That affects whether others live or die.

Said to be in the interest of saving another's life why is not abortion outlawed in
the same way that some want to mandate the wearing of mask.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:40 am

So, what is the difference between how Remdesivir and HCQ are being portrayed?


Hint,
The information for one presented by doctors who use it is not being censored.
If the information was not censored one could read Studies presented by both sides, and decide for themselves.

Why was it banned in Ohio , and then the ban was lifted.
If it was dangerous therefore banned for use
Is it now not dangerous because the ban has been lifted?

What’s changed?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:51 am

If God is responsible for so many abortions, why should mere humans be prohibited from following God’s example?


Is not your God also responsible for the virus.
Why should mere humans try to interfere with god’s work,
Something that may be incomprehensible to humans as part of god’s design
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:03 am

windwalker wrote:
Why was it banned in Ohio , and then the ban was lifted.
If it was dangerous therefore banned for use
Is it now not dangerous because the ban has been lifted?

What’s changed?


Um, it seems to me you are asking the same questions about HCQ as you did yesterday. I think I gave an answer to these questions in my posting dated Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:28 am. Maybe you overlooked it...? Or are we talking at cross-purposes?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:10 am

windwalker wrote:
If God is responsible for so many abortions, why should mere humans be prohibited from following God’s example?


Is not your God also responsible for the virus.
Why should mere humans try to interfere with god’s work,
Something that may be incomprehensible to humans as part of god’s design


Before this gets too theological... I think it's better to leave any god out of the arguments surrounding Covid-19, be this meant seriously or ironically. Too much of a can of worms. We have been interfering with 'God's work' ever since we lit a fire and used it to cook, to warm ourselves or to scare off animals.

Old joke, probably dating from the 1950s or earlier:

"If God had meant us to fly... He would never have given us the trains !"
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:23 am

In light of the present discussion

t is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR TODAY that Dr. Raoult was correct in his findings.

Today there are over 5 global studies that support the doctor’s findings that HCQ is a cheap and very effective treatment for coronavirus.

Unfortunately, this was not the preferred treatment by professionals who hoped to reap vast rewards for their own treatment for the coronavirus. Gilead pharmaceuticals was hoping to promote its own drug remdesivir as a potential option to treat the disease. Gilead had the support of Dr. Anthony Fauci who downplayed HCQ at every opportunity.


If true will be interesting reading the studies
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:43 am

Giles wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Why was it banned in Ohio , and then the ban was lifted.
If it was dangerous therefore banned for use
Is it now not dangerous because the ban has been lifted?

What’s changed?


Um, it seems to me you are asking the same questions about HCQ as you did yesterday. I think I gave an answer to these questions in my posting dated Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:28 am. Maybe you overlooked it...? Or are we talking at cross-purposes?


You have not been able to read their white paper because it’s been censored.
It outlines the rationale and findings, and also said that there would be other studies supporting their conclusions.
Looks like if true there are ongoing studies that will support their conclusions.

My asking the question is meant to show that in reality there are no valid reasons for why it was banned in the first place,
Nor of the information censored.

Not a supporter or detractor of the therapeutics myself just find it interesting the controversy surrounding it
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:19 pm

windwalker wrote:
t is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR TODAY that Dr. Raoult was correct in his findings.

Today there are over 5 global studies that support the doctor’s findings that HCQ is a cheap and very effective treatment for coronavirus.

Unfortunately, this was not the preferred treatment by professionals who hoped to reap vast rewards for their own treatment for the coronavirus. Gilead pharmaceuticals was hoping to promote its own drug remdesivir as a potential option to treat the disease. Gilead had the support of Dr. Anthony Fauci who downplayed HCQ at every opportunity.


If true will be interesting reading the studies


Agreed, if that is true it will be interesting.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:44 pm

Giles wrote:
Agreed, if that is true it will be interesting.


Indeed , if true

HUGE DEVELOPMENT: 51 Global Studies Find HCQ Effective in Treating COVID-19 — 16 Find HCQ NOT Effective — But 10 of Those Are Late Treatment Studies


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/0 ... t-studies/
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