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Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:27 am
by Steve James
you have to do cost-benefit analysis.


Hmm, you mean cost in terms of dollars or cost in terms of human lives? Sure, it's common sense that a lockdown has to end sometime. The question is whether it ends because of medical advice. He's a politician. His opinion is useless in this situation. But, I''d like to see his plan put into practice. Elderly people buy stuff and pay taxes. How many are expendable?

Those who agree that the "economy" is the most important things that can be passed on should consider that suicide would also help. I mean, it's easy to say that someone else should be willing to die. Ya'll first.

Side note; yesterday I got a text from American Express. It read "Nothing is more important to a company than the health of its customers." Yep. That is also true of a nation.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:56 am
by everything
health before wealth.

btw, just like that, you have to have health before "self defense" has any meaning, like I often rant at you guys when you appear to say you are interested in "fighting" over "health".

so ... health>wealth>"self defense" but in this case "self defense" is for defending your health and then your wealth (but not using MA if at all possible).

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:36 am
by Michael
Elderly people buy stuff and pay taxes. How many are expendable?


I think the edited,1 minute version of the interview spins it the way you're suggesting, whereas the full 5 minute clip does not give that impression to me at all.

The question is whether it ends because of medical advice. He's a politician. His opinion is useless in this situation.

Politicians use medical advice in order to form opinions and make decisions.

Dr. Brendan Carr, Chairman of Emergency Medicine at Mount Sinai says corona virus is a moving target and measures to control the spread have to be constantly evaluated.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:57 am
by Steve James
Do you agree with him? He is not making his decision based on medicine or science. He said he's willing to make the sacrifice for the sake of the economy. It's a matter of economic versus human cost. I totally disagree with equating them. A nation is a family not a company.

Meh, if he's willing to wait a few weeks, grandma might not have to die. It does sound like euthanasia or sterilization of undesirables. I'll bet that he says he's pro life.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:03 pm
by Ian C. Kuzushi
And they said Obama would bring the Death Pannels. ::)

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:39 pm
by GrahamB
It's weird that being "pro life" always seems to be about letting people die...

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:16 pm
by Steve James
Home of the free, land of everyone has a price.

Btw, in the Bronx hospital near me (10 blocks away) has set up a triage section. That means they expect to be deciding who will get treated, based on who is most likely to survive.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:07 pm
by Michael
Do you agree with him? He is not making his decision based on medicine or science. He said he's willing to make the sacrifice for the sake of the economy. It's a matter of economic versus human cost. I totally disagree with equating them. A nation is a family not a company.

Meh, if he's willing to wait a few weeks, grandma might not have to die. It does sound like euthanasia or sterilization of undesirables. I'll bet that he says he's pro life.

If you haven't watched the full five minutes then it will not be clear to you what he said, so then how can I tell you with nuance what parts make sense to me and which don't?

As I mentioned, my impression of what he said is part of the counter-argument to general quarantine for the whole country that would last long enough to damage the economy in the near term such that the human cost in the long term would be greater than that of the virus itself. I have seen people debating this and the discussions are lengthy, but I have not heard anyone suggest expendability (your word) as part of how they think quarantine should be handled.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:09 pm
by Michael
Yes, in an amazing surprise twist, White Nationalists have been reported as wanting to weaponize SARS-COV-2 and Antifa has not!

Oh wait, that's obviously what was going to happen.

Was this in response to my post about stolen lab animals being sold into the Wuhan meat market?

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:27 pm
by Steve James
So, iow, you agree with his longer point. Now, give your best argument now to a 70 year old.

As I tried to point out, the question is simply a matter of money (the economy) or human life. Sure, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But, if money and life are put into competition, you'll have to choose. The Lt Gov was very clear. He's willing to sacrifice himself for the economy, and there are a lot of grandparents who'd do the same. Are you willing to give your life for the "economy"? No, I'm a grandfather (5x). I would die for any of them, if necessary. I also know that anyone who'd sacrifice someone else would easily sacrifice me. His argument assumes that only older people will die or become ill. That is stupid. Don't post percentages of the deaths. It's not simply age; it has to do with the condition of the patient's lungs. Iow, he's sacrificing someone's grandkid with asthma, or who's had a lung removed. Did I say that his premise is stupid.

So, if you're asking me to sacrifice myself for the economy, I will have to pass. I will gladly recommend that those interested more in the economy act on their ideas. Nope, won't accept him or anyone else deciding who is going to die. He can't explain it to me in any way that I'd agree. Why? Because he couldn't explain it in a way that would make me think that you should die. If he can convince me of one, he'll be able to convince me of the other.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:37 pm
by Steve James
Michael wrote:
Yes, in an amazing surprise twist, White Nationalists have been reported as wanting to weaponize SARS-COV-2 and Antifa has not!

Oh wait, that's obviously what was going to happen.

Was this in response to my post about stolen lab animals being sold into the Wuhan meat market?


??? I thought it was a result of the FBI report. Easy to find. Btw, there are numerous instances of people deliberately spreading the coronavirus, or claiming they have it and deliberately spitting or coughing on things or people. Look it up. Some people are complaining that those who do such things can be charged with terrorism or making terroristic threats. There are plenty of conspiracy theories, too. One is that it was a Pakistani Muslim who deliberately infected Italy.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:18 pm
by Michael
So, iow, you agree with his longer point. Now, give your best argument now to a 70 year old.

I don't think you know what his longer point is and for me it is connected to a larger debate that can't fit into 5 minutes.

The Lt Gov was very clear. He's willing to sacrifice himself for the economy, and there are a lot of grandparents who'd do the same.

I did not get that impression at all after watching the unedited 5 minute video

So, if you're asking me to sacrifice myself for the economy, I will have to pass. I will gladly recommend that those interested more in the economy act on their ideas. Nope, won't accept him or anyone else deciding who is going to die. He can't explain it to me in any way that I'd agree. Why? Because he couldn't explain it in a way that would make me think that you should die. If he can convince me of one, he'll be able to convince me of the other.

No, I am not and I do not think anyone is. I think you've jumped to a conclusion because of video editing and are effectively making a strawman because of it.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:20 pm
by Steve James
It is irrelevant whether I jumped to any conclusion. I asked for your opinion of his point. If you agree with it in part or whole, just explain why you do. Specifically, why the one sacrificed for the economy shouldn't be you. And, again, that is something that could be argued rationally, and is done in triage all the time. My point was that his, and your, rationalization was a matter of saving the economy. I mean, c'mon, that's the argument slaveholders used to justify keeping the institution. Whenever there is a conflict between what is moral and what is profitable, the US leans toward the profit.

Every social program that exists is criticized because we supposedly can't afford them. Yet, as you point out elsewhere, the US suddenly has 2 trillion dollars to give away. Even if they're just printing it out, the point is that it appeared. If it was there, it was taxpayer money anyway --unless it was borrowed. That's okay, even if it's strangely socialist. Saying that we can afford to lose people is another thing. And, anyway, to get the economy started he is willing to gamble with citizen's lives. I don't think it's worth it. Nothing personal.

How about this. The poverty threshold in the US is about 25k for a family of four. After this is all over, will they get continued support? Should more money go to all the people or just to employees who were laid of? Should the country continue to offer free testing for the flu, etc.? I think that many of those people are already forgotten and are considered expendable. This virus, however, doesn't respect class. So, its victims generally can't be ignored.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:20 pm
by Michael
Instead of me arguing against a strawman, I think you should earn your Donald Dollars and watch the whole five minutes ;)

Saying that we can afford to lose people is another thing. And, anyway, to get the economy started he is willing to gamble with citizen's lives. I don't think it's worth it. Nothing personal.

Lt. Gov. Patrick didn't say that.

Re: new thread on covid-19 updates in your location

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:39 pm
by Ian C. Kuzushi
Michael wrote:
Yes, in an amazing surprise twist, White Nationalists have been reported as wanting to weaponize SARS-COV-2 and Antifa has not!

Oh wait, that's obviously what was going to happen.

Was this in response to my post about stolen lab animals being sold into the Wuhan meat market?


No, I can't imagine any connection there. It was in response to the comment about weaponizing Covid19.