Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:30 am

Steve James wrote: Otoh, if the vaccine works, "it can't be worse than the disease it prevents."


Even IF it were the case that the new Western-approved vaccines were to cause longer-lasting health damage to (I’ll just pluck a number from the air, amateurishly) 1 in 10,000 people and were to kill 1 in 50,000 people, then that would still be a much better public health outcome than the effects of the virus itself. All the more so when you consider that without vaccines, the virus will continue working its way through the entire population and will infect everyone sooner or later (unless you keep isolating/distancing/mask-wearing etc. for years, God forbid). ALSO considering that many people may well be open to infection a second or even third time, a year or two down the road.

-- I’d guess that any actual vaxx-damage figures will prove to be less than these imaginary numbers, but of course I don’t know.

I think one stumbling block is that for some people, the idea of suffering from vaccination damage seems worse than the idea of suffering from the effects of the virus itself. Some might feel that their own immune system will deal with the virus anyway; and they could be right. Although there are plenty of cases of relatively younger and physically fit people falling (very) ill from COVID-19 and suffering long-lasting problems, so I don’t think complacency is wise. But I think in essence it’s more psychological, in the sense that for some people the idea of suffering harm from a concrete event – in which you willingly participate and where someone else (‘them’, ‘the government’, ‘the system’) ‘does something to you’ – is regarded as more frightening, more terrible than suffering harm from a circulating virus. Even if the probability and level of harm from the virus is (much) greater than from a Covid vaccine. On a gut level I can sort of empathize with this viewpoint, even though I think it’s quite irrational, I don't share it and I won’t let myself be guided by any feelings like this.
Last edited by Giles on Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:01 am

I agree that much of this resistance is psychological. Otoh, there have been deliberate attempts to discredit vaccines because of theories about them carried via the internet. A certain percentage of people believe that Gates has installed a microchip in the vaccine, or that the vaccine was created using unborn fetuses, or that it is a government plot to gain control by making it impossible to work or travel without taking it. So, there are those who won't take the vaccine as an act of defiance or protest. Oh well, we'll see.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:35 pm

Sure, Steve, I omitted talking about the actual krazee conspiracy stuff regarding vaccines. This time around at least ;) . Although even there I suspect that for some adherents of these anti-vaxx notions, the myths just serve as a reinforcement, 'welcome' but possibly subconscious, to the basic fear I described above. Better to be absolutely 'sure' that something is bad instead of being in a state of doubt and indecision due to a more complex reality - the former can be easier to handle emotionally than the latter. Although with other anti-vaxx people the picture is much more complex and wide-ranging - some show essentially rational scepticism, even though I mostly wouldn't agree with their ultimate conclusions, while others have personal issues and agendas that are off on another level entirely, more akin to flat earthers.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:47 pm

So.................no idea what is in the vaccine but 100% sure it's OK
because of some statistical projection. Do I have that right?
I am sure that Covid deaths are 40% inflated and Vaccine deaths will be 40%
degraded.

Are you guys trying to convince yourselves or some imaginary audience that
you all believe you influence.

I challenge anyone to tell me what is in the vaccine.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:57 pm

roger hao wrote:So.................no idea what is in the vaccine but 100% sure it's OK
because of some statistical projection. Do I have that right?


No, Roger, I don't think you do. But I don't have more time right now (bedtime for me here in Europe). I'll be happy to return to this topic some time tomorrow, if no one else gets in before me.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:43 pm

Does anyone know what's in the flu vaccine or any vaccine? Do you know what's in aspirin or ibuprofen, or now that it hasn't been engineered to make you obedient?

Ok covid deaths are 40% over-reported. How much is 60% if 300K? Would that make the situation in hospitals any better?

Anyway, do you know what's in the vaccine? I don't mean "I read it on the internet." I mean know in the sense that you feel confident telling people not to take the vaccine. So, since I tend to trust experts because I am not one, I'll take their advice. As I've said before, listen to your personal physician. Nobody else really cares about you.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:45 pm

It's worth noting that American reluctance to take the vaccine is rapidly dissipating and the rate of willing Americans is now above 70% and following a positive trendline.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... 19-vaccine





Edited for clarity
Last edited by Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:11 am

Roger:

Here is a list of ingredients for the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine, according to the US Food and Drug Administration:

--> modRNA encoding viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2, tetrasodium pyrophosphate, cocamidopropyl betaine, sorbitol, hydrated silica, PEG-12, sodium lauryl sulfate, flavor, cellulose gum, sodium saccharin, sodium fluoride, titanium dioxide, FD&C blue no. 1

Well, actually not. The first listed ingredient is correct, all other ingredients are to be found in a Colgate toothpaste, not in a vaccine. But as Steve pointed out, we don’t actually know most of what is in many day-to-day medicines that we take. We can read up on it, but to us lay people it will still be pretty meaningless. Which is why bodies like the FDA or national equivalents have the job of checking this out for us.

Okay, Take 2 (now the real ingredients) :

Here is what the US Food and Drug Administration says is in Pfizer’s vaccine:
• Active Ingredient
o nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2
• Lipids
o (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015)
o (2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)
o 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC)
o cholesterol
• Salts
o potassium chloride
o monobasic potassium phosphate
o sodium chloride
o basic sodium phosphate dihydrate
• Other
o sucrose


Source: https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/12/09/1013538/what-are-the-ingredients-of-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine/
plus a breakdown/explanation of what these substances actually are and what they do/why they are there.

Pfizer is keeping some aspects of the mRNA secret, as proprietary information – aspects that are intended to make the vaccine especially effective. (See source link above). I don’t know whether the FDA is privy to these details. Personally that wouldn’t worry me because whatever the fine details of the mRNA, it still won’t/can’t mess with my DNA. A few days ago I cited the metaphor of a glider, and the issue of whether it might collide with a satellite and then crash. To continue that image: the glider company might not want to state exactly how they have tweaked the aerodynamics and controls of their plane to make it fly higher, faster and more responsively. That’s proprietary information and they want their own model to sell well. But whatever the tweaks to the glider, this still won’t create any danger of it colliding with satellites.

Personally I think that in the case of Covid-19 vaccines, which in essence are required by a large proportion of humanity, quickly, ALL details should be revealed so that the vaccine(s) can be made cheaply and widely for supply to everyone. But that might be a kind of liberal, left-wing viewpoint... ;)
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:25 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:It's worth noting that American reluctance to take the vaccine is rapidly dissipating and the rate of willing Americans is now above 70% and following a positive trendline.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... 19-vaccine





Edited for clarity


if 70% or so really take it, that's presumably enough. no idea on how long they last or what happens with the new strains of virus.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Peacedog on Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:10 pm

AFA as the vaccine is concerned, if someone is in a higher risk group, little reason exists to not take the inoculation. For example, I will be getting the vaccine when available as I've already had one middle of the road encounter with the virus and would like to rule out the possibility of another.

If you are under 40 years of age and have no co-morbidities (obesity, diabetes, chronic pulmonary disease, hypertension, autoimmune disorders, etc.) then the odds of dying from the disease as astonishingly small as I've pointed out many times.

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualiza ... hs-by-age/

As an example, overdose deaths were significantly greater in San Francisco this year than Covid.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hs-in-san/

If someone is still concerned with fertility issues, lacks any co-morbidities, and is under 40 years of age then I think it might be worth considering getting the vaccine or not. Overall risk of dying from the disease is very low and we really don't know what problems the vaccine will have, if any, long term.

In 2-3 years if no long term issues come up with the vaccine, then it would be safe to assume there are not any.

AFA as over reporting is concerned, it's an issue.

Specifically, it is an issue as the US government incentivized counting anyone with Covid who died as a fatality by providing additional funding to medical facilities for Covid related deaths. Everyone here has seen articles in the news about auto vehicle deaths, over doses, suicides and shootings being counted as Covid deaths simply because the person who died had the virus at the time of death.

Combine that with false positives, Elon Musk himself reported on the absurdity of this issue, and the number of cases and deaths reported is without question inflated.

https://abc7.com/elon-musk-covid-tests- ... t/7935075/

How much? Who knows.

Hysteria is definitely driving reporting, response to and public perception of the Covid infection. A number of reasons exist for this and at this point are not really worth getting into.

Long term many are going to come across as being incredibly foolish regarding the response to the disease. I doubt any of them will be held accountable as they'll long be out of politics by the time a calm, cool and calculated view of what happened is available.
Last edited by Peacedog on Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:41 pm

Peacedog wrote:AFA as the vaccine is concerned, if someone is in a higher risk group, little reason exists to not take the inoculation. For example, I will be getting the vaccine when available as I've already had one middle of the road encounter with the virus and would like to rule out the possibility of another.

If you are under 40 years of age and have no co-morbidities (obesity, diabetes, chronic pulmonary disease, hypertension, autoimmune disorders, etc.) then the odds of dying from the disease as astonishingly small as I've pointed out many times.

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualiza ... hs-by-age/

As an example, overdose deaths were significantly greater in San Francisco this year than Covid.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hs-in-san/

If someone is still concerned with fertility issues, lacks any co-morbidities, and is under 40 years of age then I think it might be worth considering getting the vaccine or not. Overall risk of dying from the disease is very low and we really don't know what problems the vaccine will have, if any, long term.

In 2-3 years if no long term issues come up with the vaccine, then it would be safe to assume there are not any.

AFA as over reporting is concerned, it's an issue.

Specifically, it is an issue as the US government incentivized counting anyone with Covid who died as a fatality by providing additional funding to medical facilities for Covid related deaths. Everyone here has seen articles in the news about auto vehicle deaths, over doses, suicides and shootings being counted as Covid deaths simply because the person who died had the virus at the time of death.

Combine that with false positives, Elon Musk himself reported on the absurdity of this issue, and the number of cases and deaths reported is without question inflated.

https://abc7.com/elon-musk-covid-tests- ... t/7935075/

How much? Who knows.

Hysteria is definitely driving reporting, response to and public perception of the Covid infection. A number of reasons exist for this and at this point are not really worth getting into.

Long term many are going to come across as being incredibly foolish regarding the response to the disease. I doubt any of them will be held accountable as they'll long be out of politics by the time a calm, cool and calculated view of what happened is available.


Congratulations! You have demonstrated that you have no inkling of how vaccines work at scale. Sure, the chance of a healthy young person dying is low, and lower than spending time in the hospital. But, what about transmission? To completely leave out the benefit of herd immunity via vaccination during a pandemic is utterly idiodic, so, par for the course.

Also, why do you keep comparing the death rate to other CODs?

And, who the fuck cares what Musk say? lol.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby roger hao on Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:47 am

• Active Ingredient
o nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2
• Lipids
o (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015)
o (2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)
o 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC)
o cholesterol
• Salts
o potassium chloride
o monobasic potassium phosphate
o sodium chloride
o basic sodium phosphate dihydrate
• Other

Other? If not the full disclosure the possibly dangerous ingredients not listed
here - a lie of omission.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:24 am

:) Omitting "Other" would be the lie of omission. However, the chart shows that there is only one "Active ingredient." It would make more sense to question what was in that than in the "inactive ingredients" --which include lipids and salts --not that I "know" what's in cholesterol or monobasic potassium chloride :). Well, other than too much of either is not really healthy.

In this case "Other" might be (is probably) the carrier: i.e., water. In any case, sure, they could be putting cyanide in and not telling anyone. Maybe perhaps it might be that there is another (or more) active ingredients in the shot. Though, right now, my primary concern is whether the vaccine works. If it doesn't, the question is moot. We'll just keep going on as we are now.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:34 am

roger hao wrote:• Active Ingredient
o nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2
• Lipids
o (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015)
o (2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)
o 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC)
o cholesterol
• Salts
o potassium chloride
o monobasic potassium phosphate
o sodium chloride
o basic sodium phosphate dihydrate
• Other

Other? If not the full disclosure the possibly dangerous ingredients not listed
here - a lie of omission.

OK, I know most of you are not scientists, so I will give some additional details:

Active ingredient = nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2 [This is what the body recognizes and produces antibodies against.]

Lipids = (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015) + (2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159) = 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC) = cholesterol [These provide a protective delivery system so that the active ingredient is not broken down by RNAses before it can reach the mitochondria to trigger production the viral spike protein.]

Salts = potassium chloride + monobasic potassium phosphate + sodium chloride + basic sodium phosphate dihydrate [These buffer the solution (pH) so that it is compatible with our internal environment.]

Other = sucrose [Essentially a sugar, often used for cryopreservation since it changes the rate of freezing; it helps prevent the formation of ice crystals which could break the lipid membranes needed to deliver the mRNA safely to the cells.]
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:37 am

Giles wrote:
Here is what the US Food and Drug Administration says is in Pfizer’s vaccine:
• Active Ingredient
o nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein (S) of SARS-CoV-2
• Lipids
o (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis (ALC-3015)
o (2- hexyldecanoate),2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)
o 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine (DPSC)
o cholesterol
• Salts
o potassium chloride
o monobasic potassium phosphate
o sodium chloride
o basic sodium phosphate dihydrate
• Other
o sucrose


Source: https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/12/09/1013538/what-are-the-ingredients-of-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine/


Roger, you misread the list, but that's easy to do with the formatting of the original. The main categories of ingredients are designated with • , while the items within each category are designated with o . This means that "Salts" include the four following types of salt compounds, while the category "Other" has just one item: sucrose. In other words, normal sugar. It's there as a kind of 'antifreeze' to protect the transport lipids [thanks for the clarification, Laodan] against possible damage caused by the very low storage temperature.
So no lies of omission here. :)

Edit: Ah, Laodan just got there before me.
Last edited by Giles on Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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