Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

[Steve James]

at the very least
it shows a clear pattern of something that is not open and transparent

So, what will make you accept anything they say?

[Bao]

https://www.newsweek.com/china-acknowle ... on-1504484

I see... I do have a vague memory reading about it.

"Liu Dengfeng, a supervisor at the science and education division of China's National Health Commission, said at a news conference Friday in Beijing that the Chinese government issued an order on January 3 to dispose of novel coronavirus samples at certain facilities not qualified to handle such highly infectious diseases as a measure to "prevent the risk to laboratory biological safety and prevent secondary disasters caused by unidentified pathogens."

The move came after the novel coronavirus, known now officially as SARS-CoV-2, was classified as Class II or "highly pathogenic" based on research and expert recommendations, Liu said. This decision necessitated "clear requirements on the collection, transportation, experimental use and destruction of the pathogen" in order to avoid a potential mishap or leakage, he said."

...

Defending Beijing's approach, Liu said Friday that Chinese public health laws clearly stipulate that institutions not meeting the requirements to handle such samples must either transfer them to a qualified depositary for safekeeping or destroy them.

"The remarks disseminated by these U.S. officials are purely out of context and intentionally confuse the audience," Liu said at Friday's press briefing.

I believe him, the explanation makes sense. But they should obviously have transferred it to a qualified depositary instead of destroying it. Clumsy or malicious, or maybe as a precautionary act if something "bad" would turn up. But I don't believe they really understood what they were doing. In jan 03 they hadn't even understood the virus yet or come to clear conclusions.
...Or maybe they still have it and just made it up...

If you believe they were really trying to cover things up, it must mean that they already knew everything and that maybe China had released it by will or even created it. This is something I don't believe in. If the virus had its first big outbreak in the USA then maybe it would make sense that another country had plant it there. But releasing it in their own country? C'mon, no government could be that stupid.

[Franklin]

to see the world
and attribute motivation
based on your own personal morals
or even what you think is possible or not possible
or what people would or would not do
is always an incomplete map of reality and possibility

reminds me of a story one of my first instructors told me
one of his old students (one of his top students from previous years)
was highly skilled..
the student was on the street one day
and was approached by his good friend who had a pickax handle in his hand
the student said hello to his friend
and the friend proceeded to bash the students head in with the pickax handle
the student could have easily defended himself
but it was outside of his perceived possibilities of reality that his friend would ever do such a thing to him

if you know history
there are tons of examples of governments experimenting on their own people
https://listverse.com/2017/06/01/top-10 ... -citizens/
and this list doesn't even include the radio active oatmeal one...



as to what happened with coronavirus...
the only thing that is clear is we don't have the data
we need data to do science...

from:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/r/r46354

COVID-19 and China: A Chronology of Events (December2019-January 2020)
Updated May 13, 2020

According to Caixin, a respected Chinese news organization, hospitals in Wuhan sent samples from their pneumonia cases to commercial companies for analysis in late December2019. Several of those companies informed the hospitals that the patient samples indicated a novel coronavirus. One company, BGI Genomics, completed genomic sequencing of the novel coronavirus on December 26, 2019, Caixin reports.32 The next entity reported to have sequenced the genome was the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), an affiliate of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. Chinese state media sayWIV sequenced the virus’ genome on January 2.

A timeline in a March 26, 2020,article by China CDC experts and others in The New England Journal of Medicine indicates China CDC sequenced the genome on January 3, 2020.34 China’s official timelines provide January 7 as the date China CDC sequenced the genome.35 January 9, 2020,media reports about the CDC’s sequencing breakthrough appear to have prompted WHO to issue its statement announcing identification of a novel coronavirus.

date - Jan 3rd
coincidence?

Jan 3rd:

the date that the chinese government issued orders to destroy coronavirus samples at certain facilities

Dr. Li Wenliang is reprimanded by local Wuhan police for spreading allegedly false statements about the outbreak online.

Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (China CDC) Director-General Gao Fu tells U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (U.S. CDC) Director Robert Redfield about a pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan.

they destroyed the first samples , research, sequencing of the virus

we had to wait for them to resequence and release it to the world

January 11:A team led by Prof. Yong-zhen Zhang of Fudan University in Shanghai posts the genetic sequence of the virus on an open-access platform, sharing it with the world.| China CDC and two other Chinese teams subsequently also post genetic sequences of the virus on an open-access platform. | China shares the virus’ genomic sequence with WHO.

and to bring it all together here
those samples that were sent to the labs in dec 2019 (and ordered destroyed Jan 3rd 2020)
would be from the cases
the the CCP did not want to share the raw data on with the WHO "investigative" team
that was sent to china in Feb 2021 - to investigate the origin of the coronavirus

[Bao]

if you know history
there are tons of examples of governments experimenting on their own people

Oh... So you really believe it might be so...

There's evidence of the virus in early 2019, in both Italy and in Spain. So maybe one of those governments have released the virus to experiment on their people? Or is it only China and the US who are evil enough?

[Franklin]

for anyone following this thread
you might have noticed that the CCP talking points have started to creep in again
perhaps to murkify the water... or perhaps because by people's own admission they are biased...

these points seem to be important to push at this time
because of the official WHO investigation in china - into the origins of the coronavirus...

we can speculate as to why - depending on thick your tin foil hat is...
but at the very least- they are there to sow reasonable doubt that the virus originated in china
and make it easier to accept other theories...

the 2 CCP talking points that just crept in are that
traces of the virus have been found in 2019 in spain and italy

now lets forget the fact that we have no reliable info about the early stages of the outbreak in china
it is commonly accepted that there was some outbreak of the disease in dec 2019
and people have said as early as november is also very likely
and other have said as early as the international military games in wuhan which were held in october 2019
(many participants of the event claimed they had symptoms which would be consistent with coronavirus- but no definitive testing was done that I am aware of..)

suffice it to say
its very hard to tell when the first cases inside China did occur
but we know with some certainty -- dec 2019 it's going on...

the claim that coronavirus was found in sewage water in spain as early as March of 2019
was addressed in a previous news article I shared to the thread...

As for reports that traces of COVID-19 were found in sewage water in cities such as Barcelona as early as March of 2019, Zhang said these are dubious because the Ct40 rating such reports cite is a very unstable result often associated with false positives. Scientists suspect there has been cross-contamination or improper storage of the samples in those studies.

Regarding the Barcelona study, Dr. Iren Xagoraraki, an environmental engineer at Michigan State, was cited by The New Year Times as saying, "I don't trust the results." The engineer pointed out that these studies test for different bits of genes of the virus and that not all the genes have shown up.

as can be seen the proof it started in spain is not definitive at all
by any stretch of the imagination

now lets move to the CCP talking point about italy..
the claim is that coronavirus might have been circulating in Milan Italy as early as september 2019
notice the claim is september - not early 2019 at all
but it is lumped in with the spain claim - as early
thats how propaganda works...

anyways the claim is that they identified antibodies for coronavirus in cancer screening samples - by targeting a part of the spike protien that is specific to the coronavirus...

lets forget we don't even know when the first cases in china were
and lets forget that china and italy have close ties -economic and otherwise
and that italy is the only european country to be part of china's belt and road innitiative...
and lets forget that italy is a major destination for chinese tourists...

the claim is that coronavirus was in the population in italy as early as september 2019
and the first time coronavirus was confirmed to have spread to italy is when 2 chinese tourists tested positve in rome on Jan 31st 2020
and Italy's first confirmed coronavirus positive patient was confirmed in Milan on the 21st of Feb 2020...

and if we remember Italy was one of the most hard hit countries in europe by the pandemic..
reasons given have been - that italy has a very large elderly population
and a high percentage of the population are smokers
and cultural norms such as huging and kissing hello and goodbye make it easy for the virus to spread...

so for this theory to hold any credibility
we would have to be given a reason why with coronavirus circulating in the population of italy since septemeber 2019
the outbreak did not start untill the end of Feb 2020
thats a good 5 or 6 months.. with no outbreak - with the disease running through the population...

not a very credible theory
or at least one that needs a lot more work
if people are going to take it seriously...

and then what exactly is the theory
italy started it, while having no outbreak themselves
transported the virus to china
and then when china gave it back - then they have an outbreak....


but this is how CCP propaganda talking points work...
its not the substance of the claim
because most of the time the claim is not backed up with any substance...
it is just tossed about casually...
and that is the mechanism of operation...
the repetition of a claim (even devoid of substance)
the more you hear it...
the more familiar it becomes
then it starts to become known to you - recognizable
(yeah, i heard that before)
then through more repetition and familiarity it becomes accepted
all without any substance involved....

[Steve James]

but this is how CCP propaganda talking points work...

The problem with your argument is that the conclusion is basically an ad hominem that neither proves nor disproves the point. I.e., the premises don't support any conclusion about the origin of the virus; they only support the argument that China was/is dishonestly concealing information. Dishonesty being the key term, given that there are honest mistakes when there is limited information.

Bao raised the point that it was unlikely that the Chinese would deliberately infect themselves. If true, there's no reason they wouldn't do so again. I tend to believe it likely that China has minimized, under-reported, and tried to hide information. I believe it's also true of the US and most governments. It's a normal as the desire to look good or save face --or just be right.

Anyway, Franklin, let's say you're right about China. What do you think we should do about the virus?

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Franklin, I agree that Bao does sometimes show unreasonable bias in favor of CCP talking points. But, not so clearly in this instance. And, you yourself are showing very obvious bias in the other direction. So, perhaps apply your own filters to yourself as well?

Most of my friends from or living in Taiwan or Hong Kong are "sure" that China manufactured the virus and let it escape. That is not a reasonable thing to be sure about at this point.

[Trick]

https://www.newsweek.com/china-acknowle ... on-1504484

I see... I do have a vague memory reading about it.

"Liu Dengfeng, a supervisor at the science and education division of China's National Health Commission, said at a news conference Friday in Beijing that the Chinese government issued an order on January 3 to dispose of novel coronavirus samples at certain facilities not qualified to handle such highly infectious diseases as a measure to "prevent the risk to laboratory biological safety and prevent secondary disasters caused by unidentified pathogens."

The move came after the novel coronavirus, known now officially as SARS-CoV-2, was classified as Class II or "highly pathogenic" based on research and expert recommendations, Liu said. This decision necessitated "clear requirements on the collection, transportation, experimental use and destruction of the pathogen" in order to avoid a potential mishap or leakage, he said."

...

Defending Beijing's approach, Liu said Friday that Chinese public health laws clearly stipulate that institutions not meeting the requirements to handle such samples must either transfer them to a qualified depositary for safekeeping or destroy them.

"The remarks disseminated by these U.S. officials are purely out of context and intentionally confuse the audience," Liu said at Friday's press briefing.

I believe him, the explanation makes sense. But they should obviously have transferred it to a qualified depositary instead of destroying it. Clumsy or malicious, or maybe as a precautionary act if something "bad" would turn up. But I don't believe they really understood what they were doing. In jan 03 they hadn't even understood the virus yet or come to clear conclusions.
...Or maybe they still have it and just made it up...

If you believe they were really trying to cover things up, it must mean that they already knew everything and that maybe China had released it by will or even created it. This is something I don't believe in. If the virus had its first big outbreak in the USA then maybe it would make sense that another country had plant it there. But releasing it in their own country? C'mon, no government could be that stupid.

Thanks Bao .....I was going to remark to previous posters that “dispose “ doesn’t necessarily need to mean destroy

[Franklin]

https://www.newsweek.com/china-acknowle ... on-1504484

I see... I do have a vague memory reading about it.

"Liu Dengfeng, a supervisor at the science and education division of China's National Health Commission, said at a news conference Friday in Beijing that the Chinese government issued an order on January 3 to dispose of novel coronavirus samples at certain facilities not qualified to handle such highly infectious diseases as a measure to "prevent the risk to laboratory biological safety and prevent secondary disasters caused by unidentified pathogens."

The move came after the novel coronavirus, known now officially as SARS-CoV-2, was classified as Class II or "highly pathogenic" based on research and expert recommendations, Liu said. This decision necessitated "clear requirements on the collection, transportation, experimental use and destruction of the pathogen" in order to avoid a potential mishap or leakage, he said."

...

Defending Beijing's approach, Liu said Friday that Chinese public health laws clearly stipulate that institutions not meeting the requirements to handle such samples must either transfer them to a qualified depositary for safekeeping or destroy them.

"The remarks disseminated by these U.S. officials are purely out of context and intentionally confuse the audience," Liu said at Friday's press briefing.

I believe him, the explanation makes sense. But they should obviously have transferred it to a qualified depositary instead of destroying it. Clumsy or malicious, or maybe as a precautionary act if something "bad" would turn up. But I don't believe they really understood what they were doing. In jan 03 they hadn't even understood the virus yet or come to clear conclusions.
...Or maybe they still have it and just made it up...

If you believe they were really trying to cover things up, it must mean that they already knew everything and that maybe China had released it by will or even created it. This is something I don't believe in. If the virus had its first big outbreak in the USA then maybe it would make sense that another country had plant it there. But releasing it in their own country? C'mon, no government could be that stupid.

Thanks Bao .....I was going to remark to previous posters that “dispose “ doesn’t necessarily need to mean destroy

I was planning to reply to Ian when i had some time later
but i think you pretty much made my point better then I could have....


I look forward to hearing you correct people when they refer to Xi JingPing as president...

[Franklin]

Anyway, Franklin, let's say you're right about China. What do you think we should do about the virus?

depends what points you are referring too...
re-China

we don't have the data...
and data we do have is unreliable...

Most of my friends from or living in Taiwan or Hong Kong are "sure" that China manufactured the virus and let it escape. That is not a reasonable thing to be sure about at this point.

there is a reason that people with direct first hand and long term experience and exposure to the CCP
don't think certain things are beyond the realm of possibility...

i mean for instance- take recent news events as an example

a handful of internet users have currently been jailed in china
in connection to the release of info on Xi's daughter that was posted to a wiki
the main culprit - had been detained, tortured and beaten for days (i think over a month if i am remembering correctly)
and forced to sign "confession" statements..
and at the same time - he also never supposedly posted to the wiki that the info was released on

or while china was reporting no new domestic cases to the world
there are internal news reports of a large outbreak at a prison (hundreds of cases)
and the prison officials have been reprimanded, relieved of their positions, and jailed...

and these are things i just saw in the last day or so...
and this is not out of the ordinary...
(these are not outlier events)

What do you think we should do about the virus?

personally - in an ideal world I would wish:
governments around the world would deal with the virus medically and with science
and communicate the science clearly to the people
and leave the politics out of it
(sort of like when they stopped a war to watch pele play a match)

and take into account other factors when making decisions
like the impact certain things have in other ways domestically
- like domestic abuse, mental health issues, drug overdoses, suicide...
and even more far reaching consequences
(i read some reports that it is estimated the prolonged lock-downs in the 1rst world countries will have huge detrimental effects to developing countries)


and personally I would like to know more about what the US was doing in the research being conducted at the WIV
and it would be nice to see people in the US demand information like that...



Franklin

[Trick]

I look forward to hearing you correct people when they refer to Xi JingPing as president...

As things were handled early on-as I mentioned earlier”confused hens” who wasn’t fully clear of what they dealing with and not reporting or working in the supposed set of chain of command..misunderstandings and confusion will most certainly happen in such environment...destroyed virus samples(maybe they were) instead of as what was meant moved on to suitable containment

This sloppiness from some officials and other in position of charge in Wuhan of course annoyed the President and others in charge that work hard to keep this great country from going Wild West .....Correct measures has since been taken to handle the Covid 19 outbreak, much appreciated by important international community organs such as the WHO

[Franklin]

India reports on the WHO investigation in China and the conclusions

a little different then the coverage in the west

[Steve James]

At least both of ya'll distrust the West.

[Trick]

. India reports on the WHO investigation in China and the conclusions

India ?? Has the Queen waken her east India tentacle....the empire is still alive, awake but fake, pretending woke while pushing dope

[Bao]

India reports on the WHO investigation in China and the conclusions

a little different then the coverage in the west

Was that a serious program or something from a comedy show? Well, anyway, thanks for the laugh.

It was all very confused. If they just got the basic facts right it would be easier to take serious.

Some important point:

China controls the WHO? Well, even the most critical person of the investigators (an Aussie!) mentioned heated arguments, which is a clear indication of that the WHO members didn't take orders from China. Instead, they had a list of important places to visit, they got access to everything they asked and was satisfied by what they got.

China has never claimed that the virus originally entered china from frozen food.

China has blamed the USA for the Pandemic? Not exactly. They have asked the WHO to investigate a laboratory in the USA that had received bat samples from Wuhan in early 2019. This laboratory was shut down suddenly in June of 2019 and the USA won't give any answers. Why should only China be open and transparent? Why is the USA allowed to not being cooperative when China can't? As always, the countries in the West are allowed to things that they won't allow from others. Imperialistic hypocrisy as usual.

.....

The video is just the usual crap people make up without anything to back it up with. In China, everyone believe that the countries in the West (and others, as India) treat China very bad and unjust. They are absolutely 100% correct. Not only the USA but other countries as well, they all lie, judge and draw conclusions without having any sort of proof. There's an extremely judgmental and suspicious attitude towards China that the USA has spread and nurtured throughout the whole economical war, and in fact even before the Trump administration. (And now I am not even mentioning several attempts to sabotage and instigating conflicts.)

I find it all very sad and unnecessary. But it's logical that countries in the West will try to push China down. They have already decided a long time ago that China should be a low vages country providing cheap labor and production for the West. The same reason why the West has always kept pushing Africa down without consideration for how millions and millions of people live in poverty and starve. And all because of the West need cheap raw material to build their own wealth on.