Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:30 am

vadaga wrote:AFA Xinjiang
Vice TV did a couple nice documentaries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFJ5zXjdD5U

AFA your friends 'speaking shit about the government on Wechat' and the peaceful demonstrations against the govenrment which are so ubiquitous - post some screenshots. I am skeptical having not found any hits on the first page of Baidu news when I searched '和平游行 中国' . Also please post some links to mainland Chinese news broadcasts that are critical of the government.

Although my many years here in China I’ve never been to Xinjiang, however one of my favorite restaurants in Dalian is a Muslim restaurant own by a guy from Xinjiang, his business is going very well and he is a friendly man and always in a good mood. Yes, it doesn’t say much about the Uyghurs life in Xinjiang, but from him I don’t get the impression of that there’s a bad situatio+n specific toward Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Can you point out ow big the Uyghur and Kazakh population is compared to the Han population in Xinjiang? Is the Muslim population much bigger there than that of other religious “followers” and seculars

Three years ago I had some business to attend in Sweden where I had to visit the Chinese embassy. When I left the embassy to take the buss back to downtown Stockholm I was accompanied by another embassy visitor, he was from Xinjiang and was working in Sweden on a three year contract at a time(if I remember right), we had a good chat and he recommended me to visit Xinjiang cause it’s a beautiful place. He didn’t mention any specific troublesome situations in his homeprovince, he talked about his home village and his family which he was to go back to visit.

As I said, not much of info on the general situation there to go on, however it’s my firsthand info on Xinjiang(Ok, there’s one much bigger source of info on Xinjiang I have, but it goes back to 30 years ago, however I will not go into that now )......Anyway I rather go by this than some “Vice-TV” set propaganda agenda “reports”

I’ve mentioned it before elsewhere, I witnessed two rather big demonstrations in Dalian, no violent whatsoever and as I heard from friends the demonstrations had some of their issues settled to their favors....when I say witnessed I mean I just happen to pass by those areas on my way to do things I regard as interesting, I’m not that guy who flash up a camera every now and then so from me no pics of peaceful demonstrations.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:57 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
vadaga wrote:1 million+ Uyghurs currently locked up have most certainly not the freedom currently to go to mosques.


A few hundred thousand maybe.

Yes, I was going to ask from where from who the one million figure comes from,.....


Probably from Amnesty. I've seen it there. They do good things, but also make up things.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:15 am

Sorry for the thread hijack. To return to the original topic:
Where is Gui Minhai these days? I wonder if he will die in captivity as Liu Xiaobo did. The former Swedish ambassador to China was acquitted recently of illegally providing intelligence overseas in her effort to work with Angela Gui to make a deal for his release.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53361508
My point in previous posts is that the new security law represents a huge change from the previous legal regime in HK(1997-2020), as detailed by Raymond Chan in this essay
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Hong-Kong-s-national-security-law-creates-new-era-of-repression

[OT]
[email protected] afa the 2017 demonstration in Shanghai 2017, Reuters ran an article on it. https://www.reuters.com/article/china-p ... SL3N1J802S Noting that they are rare. How many nonviolent protests have there been outside the Great Hall of the People between say 1989 and today. I remember Falun Gong but other than that I can't recall any.

1. AFA Xinjiang, documentaries and numbers

@Trick, if HBO does not work, there are many documentaries on Xinjiang in recent years

Here is PBS' Frontline (US)- estimating 2 million incarcerated in Xinjiang
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/china-undercover/
Here is CBC (Canada)
https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/features/in-xinjiang-china-surveillance-technology-is-used-to-help-the-state-control
Here is ABC (Australia)
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/w ... g/11734576
Here is Human Rights Watch - estimating 1 million plus detainees https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/06/china-again-un-hotseat-over-xinjiang-abuses
Here are four BBC (UK) Reports from the last two months on various aspects of what is going on in Xinjiang
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07g2zrr
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07dpl41
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07dg80s

Here is the joint statement to the UN Human Rights council from July 2020 calling on the Chinese government to end arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities in Xinjiang
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/supporting_resources/190708_joint_statement_xinjiang.pdf
Signatories to this were Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom
@Bao AFA freedom to badmouth the mainland government- please post some wechat screenshots. You must have a couple of them still saved in your wechat. Please also post some mainland articles in Chinese about peaceful protests against the government.
[/OT]
Last edited by vadaga on Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:57 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:47 am

vadaga wrote:Sorry for the thread hijack. To return to the original topic:
Where is Gui Minhai these days?


Pointless to discuss without discussing the background.

... Oh, BTW, where is Meng Wanzhou? She was kidnapped by the USA with the help of the Canada. Remember?

You should read this book, it explains how the US has put it into the system to things like imprison people from foreign corporations, charging them on very loose grounds. Best book I've read in years, everybody should read it:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Trap-Am ... 1529326869

The American Trap: My battle to expose America's secret economic war against the rest of the world

In 2014, France lost part of the control of its nuclear power plants to the United States. Frédéric Pierucci, former senior executive of one of Alstom's power company subsidiaries, found himself at the heart of this state scandal. His story goes to the very core of how he plotted the key features of the secret economic war that the United States is waging in Europe. And after being silenced for a long time, he has decided, with the help of journalist Matthieu Aron, to reveal all.



Here are four BBC (UK) Reports from the last two months on various aspects of what is going on in Xinjiang
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713


Not surprised that a lot of rumours and speculations comes up lately. A cold war has already started. What does surprise me though is that they publish serious accusations based on rumours or what one person says without having anything to back it up with.

"Mr Zenz's report was based on a combination of official regional data, policy documents and interviews..."
"Overall, it is likely that..."

Sounds like the article is based on loosely made conclusions and assumptions without any proofs? If there in fact was any proofs, why not link directly to them? :-\
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:05 am

vadaga wrote:@Bao ... Please also post some mainland articles in Chinese about peaceful protests against the government.
[/OT]


I already did, I posted two links. You replied to them as well I believe?

vadaga wrote:[email protected] afa the 2017 demonstration in Shanghai 2017, Reuters ran an article on it. https://www.reuters.com/article/china-p ... SL3N1J802S Noting that they are rare. How many nonviolent protests have there been outside the Great Hall of the People between say 1989 and today. I remember Falun Gong but other than that I can't recall any.


Yes, that was exactly the same link I posted.

My point is that you have freedom to say what you want when you believe something is wrong. You can even gather a lot of people when something is wrong. In 2017, the government listened to the people and did some changes. These incidents are not so rare as Reuters says. In 2018 there was another one in Shanghai, against the pensions system, also a very massive demonstration. I watched that one as well on Chinese TV. Also, local demonstrations against local governments happen all of the time. And there are smaller demonstrations against companies, industry and landlords/ apartment building companies etc. Chinese people are very open if they don't like something and speak what they say. If people have problems with the justice system, they often call media, letting the newspapers and TV and make stories out of it. You can find this everywhere. If you believe that there is no freedom of speech in China, you haven't been around enough to see it.

About social media, no one will charge you for anything if you say something bad about the government or a leader on WeChat or in a forum. There's a system that picks up repeated mentions of certain words and combinations of names and terms. If they come up repeatedly as a pattern, there might be an investigation. Then you might be traced and someone might be listening to your phone calls. Those cases have to do with concerns if you want to start a revolution, if you are a terrorist or similar. No one cares If you are bad mouth. China is too big. No one have time to care about what people say all of the time.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:49 pm

vadaga wrote:

Here is the joint statement to the UN Human Rights council from July 2020 calling on the Chinese government to end arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities in Xinjiang

Signatories to this were Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom

Yes, July 2020 - it’s of course part of the current anti China propaganda stance taken by the west. Most people in the west haven’t been to China, so it might be quite easy by western governments/organizations to put the notion of an “evil china” in the heads of the general population of the west.

So why are there an over representation of Muslims detained/imprisoned in Xinjiang ? One logic explaination for that could be that the majority of Xinjiang population are Muslims, so naturally the majority of criminals would come of that group ? So then nothing about religious oppression.
Another view could be that that an considerable part of the overall Muslim population in Xinjiang are not just religious in the way of going to the mosque on Fridays, perhaps they want an society where Islam is fully integrated, kind of an Islamic state with its rules and laws ?

Anyway, let’s say there’s one million detained, and let’s say China’s economy would really hit setback due to sanctions the allied gang with the US may impose toward them.. China can not afford to keep the detainees and then offer forexample Norway to accept the one million , wouldn’t that be a good gesture ?
Let’s say it would also lead to that that Xinjiang would become its own state, would there then be an considerable migration to Europe do we guess?
With those two scenarios Norway could then give its Nobel peace prize to China ?
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:00 am

Bao wrote:
vadaga wrote:@Bao ... Please also post some mainland articles in Chinese about peaceful protests against the government.
[/OT]

SNIP
My point is that you have freedom to say what you want when you believe something is wrong. You can even gather a lot of people when something is wrong. In 2017, the government listened to the people and did some changes. These incidents are not so rare as Reuters says. In 2018 there was another one in Shanghai, against the pensions system, also a very massive demonstration. I watched that one as well on Chinese TV. Also, local demonstrations against local governments happen all of the time. And there are smaller demonstrations against companies, industry and landlords/ apartment building companies etc. Chinese people are very open if they don't like something and speak what they say. If people have problems with the justice system, they often call media, letting the newspapers and TV and make stories out of it. You can find this everywhere. If you believe that there is no freedom of speech in China, you haven't been around enough to see it.

About social media, no one will charge you for anything if you say something bad about the government or a leader on WeChat or in a forum. There's a system that picks up repeated mentions of certain words and combinations of names and terms. If they come up repeatedly as a pattern, there might be an investigation. Then you might be traced and someone might be listening to your phone calls. Those cases have to do with concerns if you want to start a revolution, if you are a terrorist or similar. No one cares If you are bad mouth. China is too big. No one have time to care about what people say all of the time.


Where are your screenshots. Where are the articles from mainland China in Chinese. If as you say it is so easy to say bad things about the government, surely these should exist. Where is the media coverage of the local demonstrations against local governments?
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:30 am

Vadaga, this article discusses the odd thing of why demonstrations in China does not become exposed in Western media. You can also find photos from Chinese media and news in it with references. https://newbloommag.net/2015/07/07/shanghai-px-protest/

Again, these things occur pretty often. I’ve watched several on Chinese TV and also watched political debates. It’s all very open and political problems frequently discussed in China. But here in the west, the media wants to portrait China as closed and Chinese people oppressed. This is the picture that people here wants to read about and watch, this is what sells news.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:32 pm

Let's start by agreeing that demonization is useless, especially when it's used by one side to argue why the other side is a demon.
I'm a third party, never been to China, and I won't just believe that either the US or China is "evil." That doesn't mean that I won't believe that either does horrendous things that may be hard for Americans or Chinese sympathizers to believe.

I also don't buy the "Uighur's want to make Muslim China, or impose Sharia law, or are terrorists" --though I'm sure there are Muslim terrorists who are Uighurs. I think that labeling them as terrorists is just a way to justify whatever is done to them. Same-o, same-o. Of course, it can also be true that the PRC is taking out its revenge for terrorism on all Uighurs. What I don't find easy to believe is that the Chinese government is deliberately committing genocide.

I guess the valid fear is that what the the Chinese will do to the Uighurs, they will do to the rest of the world. Otoh, the Chinese rightly fears that the US is simply trying to impose its will on them and the world. I would say that the Chinese are more right than the US, though I don't think the US is completely wrong.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby everything on Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:07 pm

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:10 am

vadaga wrote:
Bao wrote:
vadaga wrote:@Bao ... Please also post some mainland articles in Chinese about peaceful protests against the government.
[/OT]

SNIP
My point is that you have freedom to say what you want when you believe something is wrong. You can even gather a lot of people when something is wrong. In 2017, the government listened to the people and did some changes. These incidents are not so rare as Reuters says. In 2018 there was another one in Shanghai, against the pensions system, also a very massive demonstration. I watched that one as well on Chinese TV. Also, local demonstrations against local governments happen all of the time. And there are smaller demonstrations against companies, industry and landlords/ apartment building companies etc. Chinese people are very open if they don't like something and speak what they say. If people have problems with the justice system, they often call media, letting the newspapers and TV and make stories out of it. You can find this everywhere. If you believe that there is no freedom of speech in China, you haven't been around enough to see it.

About social media, no one will charge you for anything if you say something bad about the government or a leader on WeChat or in a forum. There's a system that picks up repeated mentions of certain words and combinations of names and terms. If they come up repeatedly as a pattern, there might be an investigation. Then you might be traced and someone might be listening to your phone calls. Those cases have to do with concerns if you want to start a revolution, if you are a terrorist or similar. No one cares If you are bad mouth. China is too big. No one have time to care about what people say all of the time.


Where are your screenshots. Where are the articles from mainland China in Chinese. If as you say it is so easy to say bad things about the government, surely these should exist. Where is the media coverage of the local demonstrations against local governments?
https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/chinese-middle-class-protesters-challenge-chemical-plant-dalian-2011

https://cn.bing.com/images/search?q=dal ... BasicHover

The pics here show a little dramatic.
And it’s strange, because by the time I had already lived five years in Dalian just a stone throw from the people’s square, daily walking past the square and every evening taking an after dinner stroll around it with my wife, meeting and chatting with friends doing the same, friends that also lived in the neighborhood
In daytime I saw protesters and it all looked civilized, and some of the numbers of protesters that media reports are way to high.
No one in the neighborhood noticed any disturbance, neither daytime or any time.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:11 am

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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 am

Steve James wrote:Let's start by agreeing that demonization is useless, especially when it's used by one side to argue why the other side is a demon.
I'm a third party, never been to China, and I won't just believe that either the US or China is "evil." That doesn't mean that I won't believe that either does horrendous things that may be hard for Americans or Chinese sympathizers to believe.

I also don't buy the "Uighur's want to make Muslim China, or impose Sharia law, or are terrorists" --though I'm sure there are Muslim terrorists who are Uighurs. I think that labeling them as terrorists is just a way to justify whatever is done to them. Same-o, same-o. Of course, it can also be true that the PRC is taking out its revenge for terrorism on all Uighurs. What I don't find easy to believe is that the Chinese government is deliberately committing genocide.

I guess the valid fear is that what the the Chinese will do to the Uighurs, they will do to the rest of the world. Otoh, the Chinese rightly fears that the US is simply trying to impose its will on them and the world. I would say that the Chinese are more right than the US, though I don't think the US is completely wrong.

Up until 2009 Guantanamo re-education camp held uighur terrorists. They where released when no longer considered an threat TO THE USA.....I’ll guess they had been re-educated properly by then, to be useful for US anti China work
Last edited by Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:52 am

everything wrote:https://apple.news/ANBN8lCPhSFKDa6_OipP4OQ

HK media baron arrested

Out on bail..So no gulag camps and torture chambers .....
Last edited by Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:59 am

The apple daily
. a local Hong Kong tabloid, known for its sometimes sensational headlines and paparazzi photographs
. Apple Daily was established in 1995 by Mr Lai, reportedly named after the forbidden fruit in the Bible.
https://news.yahoo.com/apple-daily-hong-kong-newspaper-103343181.html
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