Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm

.Q. wrote:[ The fact Winnie the Pooh and Animal Crossing are banned shows you the level of censorship.


https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment ... ence-naked
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Sat May 23, 2020 9:34 pm

Peacedog wrote:Yeah, it sucks, but HK is done.

in the next ten years.

massive violence.
.

Only if your buddies (that you’re now going back to directly serve?) keep on fiddling in HK......But China can handle you, and most certainly, whether you like it or not HK in ten,20 and so on years you can still travel to and enjoy HK
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 pm

windwalker wrote:




A danger lies in the thinking that once the CCP is gone whatever takes its place
will be more benign, agreeable with the west.....

Yes it’s all about the”west”(USA) want to be “America First” all over the globe....they call it globalism :-\
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sat May 23, 2020 11:36 pm

.Q. wrote: He does not give a shit about making people's lives better.


They are fighting poverty and it has drastically declined the last ten years. There are lot of improvements on laws and regulations that make China a more equal country with more opportunities for people. They are constantly making improvements for common people.

Destroying Buddhist statutes
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2F1ZafiU3o ]


Taiwanese news. They publish strange things all of the time and lie about China. You shouldn’t listen too much to them. Looks like they were restoring the big Buddha.

Lei Lei (yes, the Tai Chi master beat up by Xu Xiaodong) inciting violence against Fang Fang (Author of Wuhan Diary). Note that he's only 1 of many calling for her punishment.


Nationalism is strong.

Chinese guy describing his wife's C-section anesthesiologist purposely not giving her enough anesthetics due to him not giving red envelope.]


This thing giving doctors and others money started more than 20 years ago. Yang Zemin turned China into a land of corruption. This is one thing Xi is trying to make better and they are fighting against. This is already gone in many places.


Taiwan businessmen that opened hospitals in China describing medical system there. It's funny how the group that setup the f*d up hospitals at least try not to f* w/ their neighbors.


Taiwanese again. Always trying to find weird things to say.

There are million worse things you can find showing what they're doing.


If you watch Taiwanese shows I believe you. If it’s all true? Doubt that even a little is true.

Honestly I barely paid attention to politics before, but since I've been stuck at home I started looking at random stuff and what I found honestly surprised me.


That’s the problem I think. You didn’t know how China looked like 20-30 years ago and now you are watching crazy stuff from Taiwan...

I also watched Taiwanese saying that Chinese are so poor that nobody can afford tea boiled eggs and another show they said that a company that makes preserved vegetables had run out of business because no one can afford buying it. But that company is listed on the stock exchange and the founder personally sent the host of the show a big box with preserved vegetables.

Taiwanese government is trying to brainwash the people into believing that all mainland Chinese are poor and have no education. Crazy.
Last edited by Bao on Sat May 23, 2020 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 12:07 am

Peacedog wrote:Conventional wisdom was that the PRC didn't want to kill the golden goose of the HK economy, so they would be fairly hands off



Why they didn’t act toughter on HK?

You need to realize that Xi’s father stood on the students side on the 1989 democracy movement. His father wanted a more open and equal society and was not afraid of the thought of democracy. Some of the HK demonstrates are people that it hasn’t gone all well for, some of their parents moved (fled) to HK after the -89 happenings. But they never found their place in society. Xi doesn’t want to go too rough on

Edit: oh, btw. HK is no Golden Goose. HK pay nothing to the Mainland. But the Mainland spend a lot of resources on HK


But as Xi is displaying, socialists gonna socialize.

It does surprise me that CV-19 was the trigger.



The virus was not the trigger. This process started right as Xi became president.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 1:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby .Q. on Sun May 24, 2020 3:12 am

Bao wrote:
.Q. wrote: He does not give a shit about making people's lives better.


They are fighting poverty and it has drastically declined the last ten years. There are lot of improvements on laws and regulations that make China a more equal country with more opportunities for people. They are constantly making improvements for common people.

>>> I agree they are making more money, but according to below non-Taiwan source, if you look at Figure 5. you can see income inequality is rising fast there:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/ ... ke-the-us/
-----------------------
Destroying Buddhist statutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2F1ZafiU3o

Taiwanese news. They publish strange things all of the time and lie about China. You shouldn’t listen too much to them. Looks like they were restoring the big Buddha.

>>> How about this one? I know it's from Taiwan but does that look like they're restoring the statute?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJ_wfaQfHE

----------------------
Lei Lei (yes, the Tai Chi master beat up by Xu Xiaodong) inciting violence against Fang Fang (Author of Wuhan Diary). Note that he's only 1 of many calling for her punishment.


Nationalism is strong.

>>> "Nationalism" makes this ok?
-----------------------------
Chinese guy describing his wife's C-section anesthesiologist purposely not giving her enough anesthetics due to him not giving red envelope.]


This thing giving doctors and others money started more than 20 years ago. Yang Zemin turned China into a land of corruption. This is one thing Xi is trying to make better and they are fighting against. This is already gone in many places.

>>> I know this is a tradition. I was just demonstrating a problem with their medical system. This guy from China discussed the 10 major fake vaccine problems in the last decade (starts 5:23). Before that he was discussing the recent fake milk problem causing babies to develop large heads:

---------------
Taiwan businessmen that opened hospitals in China describing medical system there. It's funny how the group that setup the f*d up hospitals at least try not to f* w/ their neighbors.


Taiwanese again. Always trying to find weird things to say.

>>> I have relatives that worked there for many years and had horrifying experiences with their medical systems. On the only vacation I took in China I had first hand experience with their hospital and it matched their description perfectly. If my friend didn't delete my photos when I lent him my camera I can show you the hilarious picture that showed their doctors wore tall chef's hat. I know it won't change your opinion but that experience formed mine.
---------------------------------------
There are million worse things you can find showing what they're doing.


If you watch Taiwanese shows I believe you. If it’s all true? Doubt that even a little is true.

>>> I've cited sources from Taiwan and China. Not sure why you're fixated on Taiwan. I just try to find the most appropriate source for the topic being discussed. Not sure why you think stuff out of democratic Taiwan, where there is freedom of the press, is less trustworthy vs stuff out of China, where a doctor can be arrested for simply informing others of a dangerous virus?
-------------------------------------------
Honestly I barely paid attention to politics before, but since I've been stuck at home I started looking at random stuff and what I found honestly surprised me.


That’s the problem I think. You didn’t know how China looked like 20-30 years ago and now you are watching crazy stuff from Taiwan...

>>> Like I said I have relatives that worked there for decades. My parents have gone there. My best friend's mom got kidnapped there and forced into a psych ward. She was lucky to get out w/ her life. Their statements are consistent with the info I see, which are not just Taiwan based. In fact I mostly get info from Chinese people that have moved to democratic countries like US, Australia and Spain. They have much more intimate knowledge of China and understand it to a deeper level.
---------------------------------------
I also watched Taiwanese saying that Chinese are so poor that nobody can afford tea boiled eggs and another show they said that a company that makes preserved vegetables had run out of business because no one can afford buying it. But that company is listed on the stock exchange and the founder personally sent the host of the show a big box with preserved vegetables.

Taiwanese government is trying to brainwash the people into believing that all mainland Chinese are poor and have no education. Crazy.

>>> I know for a fact that Taiwanese government wants to encourage bias against China as they've been under military threat for 70 years. No argument there. That's why you need to look at each case objectively and try to figure out what's real and what's not. You're just saying Taiwan = fake. That is provably false. Every statement from another human being is biased in one way or another, that's why we need to try to extract the truth and not just blindly assume everything is true or FALSE.
Below is an American discussed what he realized after living for years in both Taiwan and China. He went to Taiwan first and left for China when he started thinking the Taiwanese were overly nationalistic and paranoid about China. After living in China for some years, he realized the Taiwanese were not paranoid. They were realistic:


Last edited by .Q. on Sun May 24, 2020 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby windwalker on Sun May 24, 2020 4:02 am

Trick wrote:Yes it’s all about the”west”(USA) want to be “America First” all over the globe....they call it globalism :-\


If you check on the phrase "America First" its past was more of an isolationist, approach among others...

In this administrations usage it seems to be along the same lines focused on economic and social policies
of putting the interest of the US the "country" first over US capitalist from the US having no allegiance
to it...In this sense bringing it more in line with being a "country" rather than just a place to do business.

A reaction to US capitalist in and outside the government who benefit from being in the US but do not have any allegiance to it,
business is business

"globalism"

America first is the opposite.

In talking with my students, it is interesting as I tend to have a pro China biase that gets checked by those
who come from China, have experienced it in ways that only a native person could understand having
a deeper more organic level of understanding. They often say, "you just don't really know"

followed by a rather in depth explanation based on an understanding of someone who's lived it.

Never quite understood what those in HK thought would happen at the end of 50yrs now 23 or so yrs into the agreement.
HK never had sovereignty of itself, any feeling of it was, and is an illusion.

Through their own actions unrelated to the agreement they've managed to force the process to speed up.
Lots of problems there with the younger generation due to social conditions, with many born after the time of the agreement
growing up feeling they had some kind of autonomy, or would eventually gain it. Was never going to happen.



Some have mentioned Taiwan...which has "sovereignty" is capable of defending it.

As to what the US would do if, or when its necessary to do so
depends on the actions taken by both sides.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 4:32 am

.Q. wrote:you can see income inequality is rising fast there:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/ ... ke-the-us/


Seems like they are discussing from very early. Will take a closer look at it.

You can take a look at this:

Image


.Q. wrote: How about this one? I know it's from Taiwan but does that look like they're restoring the statute?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJ_wfaQfHE


I have no idea and I Cannot find any reliable sources. The main source seems to be Falungong-sponsored Epoch Times.

There are companies building illegal apartments and houses. The government recently took down a big amount of illegally built exclusive villas.

I've lived in China and have friends that are Buddhists and Muslims. I have seen no attacks on Buddhism or any other religion whatsoever. All of that are myths, I can assure you of that.

Nationalism is strong.
>>> "Nationalism" makes this ok?


Whenever did I say that what he said was ok, or even that Nationalism is ok? Please can you find a quote from me?

What I have said in earlier threads, is that if there is something I am worried about concerning China, it is about that the government is feeding nationalism. There's always a thin line between extreme Nationalism and Fascism.


I know this is a tradition. I was just demonstrating a problem with their medical system.


It's not a tradition. It comes from the Yang Zemin area. They are working with the medical system, there are already good improvements an more regulations. Earlier, the doctors could sell medicine. But now they have separated all this to pharmacies instead. This is only one of things that has become better.

I have relatives that worked there for many years and had horrifying experiences with their medical systems.


I don't doubt it. There are still problems, but it has rapidly become better the last ten-five years or so.

I'll take a look at the China vs Taiwan video. Thanks.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Michael on Sun May 24, 2020 12:10 pm

They are working with the medical system, there are already good improvements an more regulations. Earlier, the doctors could sell medicine. But now they have separated all this to pharmacies instead. This is only one of things that has become better.

I saw major improvements in general medical care quality and access during my years there, all of it affordable to the middle class. However, as with everything in China, such as decreasing poverty or improving education, when your starting point is less than zero because of the GCR, you have nowehere to go but up. That said, they have made great strides here.

It's not a tradition. It comes from the Yang Zemin area.

This is just incorrect. The red envelope before surgery is a widespread tradition throughout the PRC, where some of the doctors have extensive training, but earn the same state-regulated salary as a danwei, so they have an informal system of enforcing bribes for their specialized services.

Nowadays in the PRC, you can choose to provide an ATM card and PIN inside a red envelope instead of actual cash, but if you do not tip at least 20% of the surgery fee in advance, the doctor will do something to you or your loved in order to enforce and perpetuate this system. This is common knowledge in China, and I have seen it first hand in one of my American co-workers who did not know to do this and was marked with a nasty scar.

All that said, it appears to me that many of the new generation of doctors in China, especially those who are not working among a high percentage of peers that bought their certificates without any training whatsoever, which used to be common but is less so now, do not participate in the red-envelope-before-surgery-system. Maybe part of this shift is because there are now a growing number of segregated VIP areas within public hospitals where the membership charge and higher rates for services seem to forego the need for red envelope bribes.

I've lived in China and have friends that are Buddhists and Muslims. I have seen no attacks on Buddhism or any other religion whatsoever. All of that are myths, I can assure you of that.

Are you saying that Buddhists in Tibet, Sichuan, and Qinghai, as well as Muslims in Xinjiang, are not now being attacked?
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 12:57 pm

Michael wrote:
It's not a tradition. It comes from the Yang Zemin area.

This is just incorrect. The red envelope before surgery is a widespread tradition throughout the PRC, where some of the doctors have extensive training, but earn the same state-regulated salary as a danwei, so they have an informal system of enforcing bribes for their specialized services.


Don't know what you mean. I said that it started back then. China was much, much less corrupt before Yang Zemin.

Nowadays in the PRC, you can choose to provide an ATM card and PIN inside a red envelope instead of actual cash, but if you do not tip at least 20% of the surgery fee in advance, the doctor will do something to you or your loved in order to enforce and perpetuate this system. This is common knowledge in China, and I have seen it first hand in one of my American co-workers who did not know to do this and was marked with a nasty scar.


It doesn't have to be money. Depends on what area. A person who I know in Yunnan did an eye surgery. He gave away a bottle of fine red wine I had bought him. The doctor wasn't pleased at first when he opened the box, he thought it was a cheap chinese wine. But when he saw that it was a fine European (French I believe it was) then his face lit up and he was happy. ;D

I've lived in China and have friends that are Buddhists and Muslims. I have seen no attacks on Buddhism or any other religion whatsoever. All of that are myths, I can assure you of that.

Are you saying that Buddhists in Tibet, Sichuan, and Qinghai, as well as Muslims in Xinjiang, are not now being attacked?


I don't believe they are, not for being Tibetan, Muslim or Uighur. There are separatists/terrorists they do hunt, like every country would, but these are groups with very few people. Religion is not forbidden in China. There are tibetans and Uighurs living everywhere in China. They study their languages, texts and religions all over China. I know a Xinjiang Uighur from Ürümqi who studied in Sweden. She and others were free to move around, travel abroad, study abroad like anyone else. She said that there were places that were very violent and I don't believe that she liked Han Chinese very much, but other than that, she lived like any other Chinese and had the same privileges. And I know several Chinese Muslims living in Yunnan. They live very well. As they don't eat pork, they are even granted subsidies for buying beef. As you live in China you should know that most Han Chinese think that they are the ones that are being discriminated because every minority have benefits they don't have.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby .Q. on Sun May 24, 2020 1:24 pm

Bao wrote:
.Q. wrote:you can see income inequality is rising fast there:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/ ... ke-the-us/


Seems like they are discussing from very early. Will take a closer look at it.

You can take a look at this:

Image

-----------------------
.Q. wrote: How about this one? I know it's from Taiwan but does that look like they're restoring the statute?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJ_wfaQfHE


I have no idea and I Cannot find any reliable sources. The main source seems to be Falungong-sponsored Epoch Times.

There are companies building illegal apartments and houses. The government recently took down a big amount of illegally built exclusive villas.

>>> I am aware Epoch Times is Falungong-sponsored. Whenever I see outlandish claims from these types of sources I tried to see if I can find alternative sources of verification. I've occasionally seen tricks such as old news being made new again and that's why I say to examine each case by its own merit. I am aware that details such as the statute being illegal might be the cause, but the video specifically stated that the statute was legal and I have found no contradictory info. Since I know during CR they've destroyed plenty of cultural artifacts anyway, it's not even one of those hard to believe things.
----------------------------------------------
I've lived in China and have friends that are Buddhists and Muslims. I have seen no attacks on Buddhism or any other religion whatsoever. All of that are myths, I can assure you of that.

>>> Sorry, I've seen plenty of info online that contradict this. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. It seems more of a survivorship bias to me: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-reality/
--------------------------------------------------

Nationalism is strong.
>>> "Nationalism" makes this ok?


Whenever did I say that what he said was ok, or even that Nationalism is ok? Please can you find a quote from me?

What I have said in earlier threads, is that if there is something I am worried about concerning China, it is about that the government is feeding nationalism. There's always a thin line between extreme Nationalism and Fascism.

>>> I was pointing out Lei Lei inciting violence against Fang Fang and your answer was "Nationalism is strong". I'm sure most people read it the same way as me. If what you had said some people are always into extremes that would be easier to understand.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I know this is a tradition. I was just demonstrating a problem with their medical system.


It's not a tradition. It comes from the Yang Zemin area. They are working with the medical system, there are already good improvements an more regulations. Earlier, the doctors could sell medicine. But now they have separated all this to pharmacies instead. This is only one of things that has become better.

>>> Michael already answered this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have relatives that worked there for many years and had horrifying experiences with their medical systems.


I don't doubt it. There are still problems, but it has rapidly become better the last ten-five years or so.

I'll take a look at the China vs Taiwan video. Thanks.

---------------------------------------------------------------
One thing I was going to mention last time but forgot. I mentioned the CCP will make people realize they lack imagination in terms of how low people can go. One of the first things that made me realized this is when I found this thread from the doctors that volunteered to go into Wuhan to help. It's about the government retracting the originally promised bonuses for the medical workers. This site is a China forum where only people who registered with a China account (I assume it requires a China phone number which also requires real ID) can comment. It has about 1,800 comments on this topic. Based on those criteria, I'm going to assume this is fairly trustworthy source. In fact I really don't understand how gov can let this stay up.
These people risked their lives going into Wuhan during the peak to help out and the government has promised some amount of money (it doesn't even sound like much but I don't know their standard wage to compare).
The 1st thing that shocked me was that government reneged on the promise and asked all of them to pay the bonuses back to their department. Their excuse was that they found SOME corruption where certain area leaders made claims they worked when they didn't.
2nd thing was that even when they were paying the bonus out in the 1st place, they only paid doctors specifically on the days they came in contact with a confirmed patient. If you worked 50 days but only on 1 day a patient was confirmed, you get bonus for 1 day. In fact, I don't think you get paid on the subsequent days you're working with the same patient because I read something that sounds like it, but I'm not sure. This honestly shocked me the most, because I could not have come up with this if you asked me how to screw medical workers. Again, mind expanded.
3rd thing was that even when they were paying bonuses, only doctors were counted. Nurses do not get hazard pay even though they probably were exposed more than doctors. This last one might have been from a different source but I remember it very well and it's too much work trying to reconfirm if it was from this thread, because the website uses that unlimited scroll design that's a pain to use. I remember for sure that this was a thing though.

https://www.zhihu.com/question/380494722

BTW: Thanks for actually having reasonable response this time. I don't mind contradictory views, but the original response was not right.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 3:02 pm

Interesting, didn't know about that. I'll check the link. I know there has been discussions about payments, extra pay etc. If this is true and if they don't do anything, many people will get very angry. They spoke about letting the children of the people working in Wuhan fighting the Corona Virus outbreak having extra points on the exams for the University. Many people got upset because they thought that this wouldn’t be fair. Maybe an older generation would have accepted this, but the post -78 generations care more about equality. It has happened things with the thinking of common people. And I do believe that this causes the government to feel that some changes are necessary. In recent years there has been a few quite big demonstrations, so the government needs to make sure that the people see improvements.


.Q. wrote: BTW: Thanks for actually having reasonable response this time. I don't mind contradictory views, but the original response was not right.


Oh, I can see that. Sorry. You are right. I’ve been on my edge lately. There’s a very strong anti-Chinese propaganda going on and people write the weirdest things. I feel a bit sad about this. There are many things that needs to be changed and improved in China for sure. But the constant attacks are unnecessary. People’s attitudes towards Chinese in general is remarkably negative. I don’t believe that we solve anything with animosity.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bill on Sun May 24, 2020 3:18 pm

On this board we are able to differentiate between Chinese people and culture which we all appreciate and enjoy. And the government of China, which most of us are do not like.
Do not mistake our criticism of the CCP as criticism of Chinese. We see them as two different things.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 3:24 pm

Bill wrote:Do not mistake our criticism of the CCP as criticism of Chinese. We see them as two different things.


I hear people saying this sometimes. But sometimes the criticism of the CCP, and especially the misconceptions, is based on racism towards the Chinese people.

And sometimes people are stuck in old views and don’t understand how things have changed.

There are indeed a lot of things to criticize. But we also need to separate facts from fiction.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 24, 2020 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bill on Sun May 24, 2020 6:23 pm

You make some good points.
I'll try not to be too offensive.
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