Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:33 am

Apparently the great firewall has come to Hong Kong.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/0 ... -citizens/
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:11 am

Not following thread, but this popped up.

60 Minutes Australia
Jul 12, 2020

Rest in peace Hong Kong. It might seem over the top to say it, but according to thousands of worried residents, the once thriving hub of Asia is now all but dead. They blame the heavy-handed tactics of the Chinese Communist Party for their city’s demise. The Beijing regime has imposed a strict national security law which not only strips Hong Kong of its autonomy but also severely restricts democratic freedoms. Anyone breaking the law faces life imprisonment. The draconian takeover has been condemned around the world with countries including Australia warning its citizens to stay away from the troubled region. However, as Liam Bartlett reports, that’s only strengthening the resolve of the increasingly belligerent Chinese leadership.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmMxoQg1F8I
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:23 am

There’s really some hard working guys out there who try to erase history and impose the idea that China is trying to annex another country..
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:27 am

What is everybody upset about? Have people who are outraged even read the new laws???

It criminalises any act of:

secession - breaking away from the country
subversion - undermining the power or authority of the central government
terrorism - using violence or intimidation against people
collusion with foreign or external forces

Will it impeach on people's freedom? Of course it will. They will have less room for criminal acts and there will be less tolerance for foreign collusion. How is this bad? People will be punished harder if they do crimes against the state.

How is these new laws different from any other country's laws, democratic or not? No difference at all. What would the USA or GB do to a person who was funded by China trying to create a rebellion against the government? Or take down the president, or prime minister, by illegal means?

So what every other country do, China is not allowed to do? Other countries outrage over this is nothing but hypocrisy.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:02 am

It's not the law, it's the interpretation. The interpretation is pretty much 'the mainland government can lock you up without due process and read your email, freeze your bank accounts and assets' which is a new development for HK

Also it's that such laws are not meant to be allowed until 2047 after the end of One Country Two Systems, again a new development for HK.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby .Q. on Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:38 am

vadaga wrote:It's not the law, it's the interpretation. The interpretation is pretty much 'the mainland government can lock you up without due process and read your email, freeze your bank accounts and assets' which is a new development for HK

Also it's that such laws are not meant to be allowed until 2047 after the end of One Country Two Systems, again a new development for HK.

According to China's own constitution, rule 35 guarantees right to freedom of speech, publishing, gathering and protesting. Rule 36 guarantees freedom of religion. I think we all know how much freedom of religion and free speech they have. Laws don't mean a thing if they don't apply to everyone.
第三十五条 中华人民共和国公民有言论、出版、集会、结社、游行、示威的自由。
第三十六条 中华人民共和国公民有宗教信仰自由。

In case someone claims that's fake Taiwanese news, here's China's government website listing those laws:
http://www.gov.cn/guoqing/2018-03/22/co ... m#:~:text=第三十五条
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:45 pm

vadaga wrote:It's not the law, it's the interpretation. The interpretation is pretty much 'the mainland government can lock you up without due process and read your email, freeze your bank accounts and assets' which is a new development for HK

Also it's that such laws are not meant to be allowed until 2047 after the end of One Country Two Systems, again a new development for HK.

Right now Terrorist in/of any nation get their bank accounts and assets freezed.....But of course if China does it, it’s evil ??
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:01 pm

.Q. wrote: Rule 36 guarantees freedom of religion. I think we all know how much freedom of religion and free speech they have. Laws don't mean a thing if they don't apply to everyone.
Two days ago, I drove by one of the churches here in the downtown, the church my Chinese aunt goes to every Sunday, it has an all new and shiny exterior. Haven’t been inside it yet, but will go one day.

At least three years ago when I was in in that area of Dalian, the mosque was still quite active, even now had a group of foreigners attending it every Friday.
During my ten years in Dalian the Church I often passed by in the downtown area was very active, and so where the house churches in my neighborhood.....
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:55 am

.Q. wrote:
vadaga wrote:It's not the law, it's the interpretation. The interpretation is pretty much 'the mainland government can lock you up without due process and read your email, freeze your bank accounts and assets' which is a new development for HK

Also it's that such laws are not meant to be allowed until 2047 after the end of One Country Two Systems, again a new development for HK.

According to China's own constitution, rule 35 guarantees right to freedom of speech, publishing, gathering and protesting. Rule 36 guarantees freedom of religion. I think we all know how much freedom of religion and free speech they have. Laws don't mean a thing if they don't apply to everyone.
第三十五条 中华人民共和国公民有言论、出版、集会、结社、游行、示威的自由。
第三十六条 中华人民共和国公民有宗教信仰自由。

In case someone claims that's fake Taiwanese news, here's China's government website listing those laws:
http://www.gov.cn/guoqing/2018-03/22/co ... m#:~:text=第三十五条


Yeah, I read a bit of law in grad school. The mainland also has a fairly robustly written legal system but it's not enforced as it is written. 天朝有法律无法治,人治也。
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:24 am

It's not the law, it's the interpretation


So it's ok to condemn China based on fantasies? Because of how people in the West imagine how some laws could be used? :-\

I think we all know how much freedom of religion and free speech they have.


Apparently people don't know how much freedom of religion and free speech they have.

Chinese are free to have religion, go to churches, mosques, temples. And people complain and critizise the goverment and speak bad about it all of the time. Chinese have in fact more freedom than in some democracies.

... But ok, they don't like people to compare Xi with Winnie the Pooh for some reason... I can give you that...
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 am

1 million+ Uyghurs currently locked up have most certainly not the freedom currently to go to mosques. They, along with the rest of the country are not allowed to criticize the government or discuss 'sensitive topics' in text either written or over wechat or weibo. Or vote. Or compare the current leader of the country with Winnie the Pooh.

HK previously had due process and independent courts, unlike the mainland. Now after the new National Security law, it does not.
Last edited by vadaga on Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:11 am

vadaga wrote:1 million+ Uyghurs currently locked up have most certainly not the freedom currently to go to mosques.


A few hundred thousand maybe. It's not uyghurs only, but various minorities people from poor areas with no education. Religion itself is not what they consider problem. The main idea is to target extremists, but they all get a chance to educate themselves to be able to get jobs and be a part of society. In most countries, there are laws that say that everyone must go to school. In my country, the police can come and drag children to school and fine parents who don't allow their kids to go to school. In China, many never had the chance to go to school. So for many still living in poor areas, this is their chance.

In this short documentary from BBC it's very clear that they go home to their families in the weekends. They graduate after clearing the classes. Here they also spoke with someone who graduated, but they found no one to interview that described torture or a more prison like situation.

https://youtu.be/WmId2ZP3h0c

I am not saying that it's a pleasant place to be in, but it's very much exagerrated here.

They, along with the rest of the country are not allowed to criticize the government or discuss 'sensitive topics' in text either written or over wechat or weibo.
.

You can say whatever you want. My Chinese friends speak shit about China all of the time on WeChat. People say shit about the government all of the time, even in local media and TV, and there are also demonstrations here and there. All peaceful. It's much more free and open than what most people here would even dare to believe. As long as you don't put together a lot of people to over throw the government you can say pretty much anything you want.

HK previously had due process and independent courts, unlike the mainland. Now after the new National Security law, it does not.
[/quote]

Previously, the people in charge in HK had to wait for phone calls from London before they could do anything. Since the late 1990s, HK has had more independency than ever before.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby vadaga on Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:46 am

AFA Xinjiang
Vice TV did a couple nice documentaries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFJ5zXjdD5U

AFA your friends 'speaking shit about the government on Wechat' and the peaceful demonstrations against the govenrment which are so ubiquitous - post some screenshots. I am skeptical having not found any hits on the first page of Baidu news when I searched '和平游行 中国' . Also please post some links to mainland Chinese news broadcasts that are critical of the government.
Last edited by vadaga on Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:55 am

These two are maybe the two biggest demonstrations in the last years. The first article has a good discussion, questioning why western media don't publish demonstrations in China.

Shanghai 2015
https://newbloommag.net/2015/07/07/shanghai-px-protest/


Shanghai 2017
https://www.google.se/amp/s/mobile.reut ... SL3N1J802S

This one was massive, the big streets were packed with people. I was in China by then and watched it on TV in another city in another part of China.
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Re: Hong Kong: end of one country, two systems?

Postby Trick on Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:18 pm

Bao wrote:
vadaga wrote:1 million+ Uyghurs currently locked up have most certainly not the freedom currently to go to mosques.


A few hundred thousand maybe.

Yes, I was going to ask from where from who the one million figure comes from,.....
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