Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:09 am

Steve James wrote:
Giles wrote:
Steve James wrote: Or, why is it that no one is taught the names of the people Columbus met when he discovered Hispanola?


Because they were quite soon dead as a result of nasty Spanish/European diseases or high-quality Spanish/European steel ?


That's if you read the stuff in English :). There are plenty of stories and statues representing the opponents and victims all over this continent. But, mostly where Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Native languages are spoken.

My students were expected to know the names of the various peoples that Columbus met because Columbus wrote about them, himself. (In Cartas de la Relacion).

Secondly, millions of indigenous peoples were wiped out, but millions survived. The idea that they were killed off is what allows us to name stuff "after" them and claim that the land was vacant. (Not a criticism of you Giles, btw). And, since Europeans rarely brought females with them (though the governor of the DR brought his wife, as did some others), a population of "creole" peoples emerged. In Mexico, they're called Mexicans. :) Where are the Indians in Mexico? Hard to find, but you will find a town with a statue dedicated to a guy named Gaspar Yanga. Look him up. :)


the Lucayan, Taíno, and Arawak all had a rough time under Columbus, but things got much worse as the dizzy explorer continued to fail to meet expectations of the crown. Bobadilla recorded some of the atrocities at the time. Very horrendous stuff.

As for the death tolls, your implications are a bit generous, no? It's estimated that as many as 90% of the populations were wiped out. There is geological evidence for this too, with the drop in carbon emissions being significant enough that one of the two proposed start points for the Anthropocene coincides with the Oribis Spike (the other with either the industrial revolution or nuclear testing in the 60s).

Also, Columbus only became an American hero quite after the fact. We needed a symbol who wasn't British around the tricentennial and suddenly statues went up everywhere. Not really all that dissimilar from all the confederate statues that went up LONG after the defeat of the South. Invented traditions and all of that.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:33 am

I wasn't offering percentage statistics. But, put it like this, if a Spaniard has a child with a Mejica, do the Mejica disappear?
In dna terms, no. Ever read La Raza Cósmica?


My point is that --even granting deliberate genocide -- declaring a people wiped out is an excuse used to appropriate their property and even their names. Ie, force Indian children to take English names, and then put Indian names on cars and helicopters and their images on whatever they want. Talk about injustice. And, if living Indians ask for anything back, you know what happens. Like others, they're told they're lucky to be here.

Sorry, not directed at you.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:42 am

My first paper in grad school was about the then standard definition of an American. It was "A person of European descent born in the United States.". Btw, in the first dictionary entry, a creole was "A slave born in the master's house." OK, that was in a Portuguese etymological dictionary. Anyway, they are interesting examples for some.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Giles on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:14 pm

Steve James wrote:My first paper in grad school was about the then standard definition of an American. It was "A person of European descent born in the United States.".


:( :-\
Do you know roughly until when this definition was considered valid, or (not necessarily the same) was removed from dictionaries?
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:45 pm

Steve James wrote:I wasn't offering percentage statistics. But, put it like this, if a Spaniard has a child with a Mejica, do the Mejica disappear?
In dna terms, no. Ever read La Raza Cósmica?


My point is that --even granting deliberate genocide -- declaring a people wiped out is an excuse used to appropriate their property and even their names. Ie, force Indian children to take English names, and then put Indian names on cars and helicopters and their images on whatever they want. Talk about injustice. And, if living Indians ask for anything back, you know what happens. Like others, they're told they're lucky to be here.

Sorry, not directed at you.


I haven't read La Raza Cósmica, but to your point about progeny, I would answer not necessarily, but "breeding out" culture has certainly been something done on purpose and to varying degrees of success through history. I don't think it's ever good when it's done with that purpose. When it's not, its just something that will happen and cultures will change and adapt.

It's unclear to what extent cultures were wiped out, if at all, during the collision of hemispheres, but if a culture is "wiped out," I think that's bad, and don't really care about the DNA. But, I would imagine that even in those cases, traces of the culture survive in adjacent cultures and live on as their own metaphorical nucleotides.

As usual, I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, I just thought your choice of words--a million here, a million there--wasn't the best. Not that I have room to talk.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:53 pm

English Europeans called the indigenous peoples Americans in the 16th century. It was English colonists who changed it to mean European, specifically British. I'm not sure when dictionaries in English changed. It wasn't by the 90s. So, I would say sometime in the 21st century. Btw, check the online etymological dictionary.

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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby everything on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:16 pm

It's interesting to contrast American (N. and Latin) histories because of the gradations of racism-based societies and economies. Roughly summarizing:

N. America: take land away from the red people. Steal the black people and force them to work and not be "full" people.

Latin America: race and geo based hierarchy. From wikipedia:
During the Spanish colonial period, Spaniards developed a complex caste system based on race, which was used for social control and which also determined a person's rights in society.[22] There were four main categories of race: (1) Peninsular - a Spaniard born in Spain, (2) Criollo (fem. criolla) - a person of Spanish descent born in Spanish colonies in The Americas, (3) Indio (fem. India) - a person who is a native of, or indigenous to, Mesoamerica, and (4) Negro (fem. Negra) - a person of African slave descent.[22] There were also other caste groups like the Mestizos/Mestizas that had one Spanish and one Indian parent. The Castizos which had one Mestizo parent and one Spanish parent, the children of a Castizo were generally accepted as a Criollo. Mulatto/Mulatta were usually the ones with one Spanish and one black parent, if a mulatto was born in slavery they were considered slaves as well unless the mother was free then they would be free too.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:25 pm

The national identity card in th DR has 5 categories. Blanco, Indio claro, Indio, Indio oscuro, and Negro. Today.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:28 pm

Yep, Obama is black, er brown, but he's Black even though mom is White. Ooh, please no one try to explain ro me why.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby everything on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:48 pm

shheeesh
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:45 pm

.he certainly started out as a "white supremacist" (which the huge majority of European politicians were at the end of the 19th century and first half of the 20th century).
. Afa Columbus, he was a murderer, but he wasnt remembered for that by the people who erected the statue. But, where's the statue of Leif Ericson? Or, why is it that no one is taught the names of the people Columbus met when he discovered Hispanola? We learn about Columbus every year. He's not eve the tip of this continent's historical iceberg.
Yes I could suspect that Churchill had a shady side to him. But as for Columbus I had the notion that he was the guy that just paved the rout to the “West Indies”that then the sinister guys followed(that’s basically what we got to know about him back when I was a schoolboy, that he discovered the new world)
But from the info in this thread I got curious about him and googled, and yes Columbus also seem to have not been a very nice guy.
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:34 pm

. Afa Columbus, he was a murderer, but he wasnt remembered for that by the people who erected the statue. But, where's the statue of Leif Ericson? Or, why is it that no one is taught the names of the people Columbus met when he discovered Hispanola? We learn about Columbus every year. He's not eve the tip of this continent's historical iceberg.
. millions of indigenous peoples were wiped out, but millions survived. The idea that they were killed off is what allows us to name stuff "after" them and claim that the land was vacant. (Not a criticism of you Giles, btw). And, since Europeans rarely brought females with them (though the governor of the DR brought his wife, as did some others), a population of "creole" peoples emerged. In Mexico, they're called Mexicans. :) Where are the Indians in Mexico?
Since Leif was mentioned, I googled ‘Vikings in Mexico’ and the first hit say they probably where, and the struggles between groups seem to have been quite complex https://www.ancient-origins.net/history ... tty-021084
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 pm

LaoDan wrote:I am for democracy, and dictatorial leadership is counter to democratic ideals.
I see what is happening in the USA in those terms.

what I meant with my comment to your initial post in this thread...That what might be happening right now in front of our eyes “on a global level”....There might be a force(USA?) that strive for an more dictatorial leadership on a global level, the way to reach this is to play groups(tribes8-) ) against groups till the commoners “demand” a harder more tight grip on them to get some sort of peace.....divide and rule to reach dictatorship by “democracy”

Far fetched ? Yes most probably....
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:32 pm

LaoDan wrote:


I have a friend who was a reporter during the Tiananmen Square protests (and before and after while living in Beijing and working as a reporter and translator), who was imprisoned in a Chinese jail and subjected to numerous subtle and overt indignities. From my vantage point I do not understand where you are coming from in your comparison between protests in the USA and those in China.
I am not certain how you are equating protests in the USA with those in China (and you do not seem to want to clarify), but I do know how the Chinese protests were suppressed, and knowledge of Tiananmen Square has been suppressed since, and how modern Chinese protests are suppressed...by a very authoritarian leadership.

I’ve seen “larger “protests(only two occasions)here in China , involving environmental issues and community issues. People gathered up outside the city hall and police headquarters. No rioting, no police brutality, and the protesters demands where met.
Now the tianmen protests was of course on another scale, and to my belief where not only indirectly backed by foreign powers but directly powered too(as far as it could be back then) very much as what is happening in HK these days

It all was supposed to fall back then, the Berlin Wall, the soviet, and the Middle Kingdom ....But China is not the west, here it is socialism with Chinese characteristics, not Stalinism......Ok, Russia seem to have manage early on to have slipped away from that foreign powered hand that wanted grip their balls
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Re: Why is the USA the most terrible police state in the world

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:57 pm

Steve James wrote:English Europeans called the indigenous peoples Americans in the 16th century. It was English colonists who changed it to mean European, specifically British. I'm not sure when dictionaries in English changed. It wasn't by the 90s. So, I would say sometime in the 21st century. Btw, check the online etymological dictionary.

Words are history lessons.

What does “America” mean, the indigenous people’s was named after an European ?
. The man's name Amerigo is Germanic, said to derive from Gothic Amalrich, literally "work-ruler." The Old English form of the name has come down as surnames Emmerich, Emery, etc. The Italian fem. form merged into Amelia.
. Amerigo Vespucci (1454-1512) who made two trips to the New World as a navigator and claimed to have discovered it. His published works put forward the idea that it was a new continent, and he was first to call it Novus Mundus "New World." Amerigo is more easily Latinized than Vespucci (Latin Vesputius, which might have yielded place-name Vesputia). The sense in English naturally was restricted toward the British colonies, then the United States.
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