prone restraining

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Re: prone restraining

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:34 pm

Naw, he just died, or would have died anyway, the officer's actions had nothing to do with it.

Anyway, there's an eight minute video. Lots of opinions. But, when "you" see the picture of the guy kneeling on the other guy's next, do you see yourself as the cop or Mr. Floyd? What would "you" do? How would "you" feel? Even one of the other officers (a rookie) asked if he couldn't be turned on his side.

Ok he had been accused of something, but everyone is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. While he's in custody, he's supposed to be under the protection of the state. Even a convict gets a dentist and medical care.

Afa the police medical examiner's report as compared to independent autopsies, well, I read it. The first thing I looked for (i.e., on page one) was "cause of death." I didn't see one. Instead, the first thing is a "case title."

CASE TITLE: CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT
SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION
DECEASED: George Floyd aka Floyd Perry SEX: M AGE: 46


But, the interesting part is the "Final Diagnoses" --because everyone wants to know why he died, and how.

46-year-old man who became unresponsive while being restrained by law enforcement officers; he received emergency medical care in the field and subsequently in the Hennepin HealthCare (HHC) Emergency Department, but could not be resuscitated.


And, then we get to the pages that Mike posted that says "III. No life-threatening injuries identified. " The next page shows the drugs in his system, and his sickle-cell trait, and that he had the covid virus.

Therefore, he just died of cardio pulmonary arrest. Happens all the time. Well, yeah, but I still think that if the officer had gotten up after two minutes, or three minutes, or just after Floyd stopped breathing and was unresponsive, I'd buy that the officer cared about Mr. Floyd's life. If I saw it happening to you, I would say the same thing.

At best, the report says that he died of "cardiopulmonary arrest" complicating law enforcement subdual ...." Iow, Mr. Floyd was having an episode while he was being restrained and with his neck compressed. In that case, the officer should have saved him.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby jimmy on Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:42 pm

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Re: prone restraining

Postby Michael on Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:25 pm

Iow, Mr. Floyd was having an episode while he was being restrained and with his neck compressed. In that case, the officer should have saved him.

I think that's what happened, but they're going to have to finally determine if there was excessive force by making some conclusions from the autopsy(s), which will probably be more heavily based on tissue damage than on how bad it looks in the video.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:54 pm

Well, if the force wasn't excessive, it was sufficient. If Mr. Floyd was having a heart attack ..... Naw, if you were having a heart attack, would you expect a cop to put his knee on your neck for 8 and a half minutes? With your hands handcuffed behind your back?

Still, he died on the scene (i.e., could not be resuscitated) from not being able to get oxygen into his lungs until his heart stopped --while the cop kneeled on his neck. I tend to think that most reasonable people will see a connection. A grand jury has already indicted the cop. In fact, they had to meet more than once because the charge was increased. That means that 13 to 23 random people in a room had to look at the video, read the law, and then decide "if" there was enough evidence to show that a crime was committed. I'd be the same if they saw someone stabbed on cctv.

As Greg pointed out, you can choke someone's blood off without crushing the airway. And, if I kneel on someone's neck for eight minutes, I guarantee it'll leave a mark. If the argument is that it was just a slip up, ok. There was a Minnesota cop named Noor who accidentally shot an Australian woman a few years back. He's in jail now.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:59 pm

Fwiw,
The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. The reason to learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is that if CPR is started within six minutes of cardiac arrest, the brain may survive the lack of oxygen. After about six minutes without CPR, however, the brain begins to die.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:24 pm

Started the thread because it was said that police officers don’t use this type of restraint.
When in fact they are trained to do it and are cautioned not to compress the neck.
It’s still used as shown in another clip even after what happened they still use it in some places.

As in the Eric Garner case, it was also something that was trained.
Any type of pressure on the neck chest or back, can restrict either oxygen intake or blood flow.

In each case including the recent clip I posted those being restrained say they are unable to breathe.

The defense will have to prove what was shown on the clip was in fact not the cause of death.
They will look at The autopsy report.

As to the “cause “ of death.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby jimmy on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:30 pm

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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:32 pm

It's been said that the tactics of prone restraining with the knee was not or is not trained.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpb9rs-ttOk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAuomhS_M1o

very recent even after what happened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snj_OOFw440
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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:44 pm

jimmy wrote:Image



Image
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Re: prone restraining

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:21 pm

The defense doesn't have to prove anything. If keeping a detainee in that position for eight minutes is standard, then there should be lots of other examples.

When I was in LA, it seemed to be standard to have detainees lay prone on the ground (wherever it was) with arms outstretched. Then they would kneel on his back while they grabbed an arm to handcuff.

Anyway, with four officers present, it seems reasonable to me that he could have been stood up. Although, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, it would help to show why having Mr. Floyd in that position for that length of time was necessary. If I were on the jury, I'd also like to know why the officer didn't start resuscitation once Mr. Floyd was unresponsive.

Personally, back in the day, if I had choked someone out, the first thing would be to revive him. I'd hope anyone who'd trained to put someone to sleep would also know how to wake that person up.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby Michael on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:23 pm

And, if I kneel on someone's neck for eight minutes, I guarantee it'll leave a mark.

Autopsy found no bruises or injuries on the neck, so how much pressure did he apply, where, and for how long? Autopsy is the primary way to measure it as far as I know.

Well, if the force wasn't excessive, it was sufficient.

I think that is the crux of the case, is whether or not the force is considered excessive and sufficient to have caused death, and after that there is negligence not to render aid once he stopped moving and talking.

In most cases, police are not prosecuted and rarely convicted even when they are found negligent.

For example, four years ago a white man was killed by police in Dallas in August 2016 in circumstances similar to those of George Floyd's death. His name was Tony Timpa. Three officers were indicted, but the charges were dismissed by the D.A. The family pressed for three years in order to get the body camera footage released, which came more than two years after the dismissal of charges.
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/statu ... 7398030336



Daniel Shaver was unarmed and executed by Mesa, AZ police in a hotel hallway on January 18, 2016. The shooter was acquitted.
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/statu ... 5923309569



Kelly Thomas was unarmed and beaten to death by Fullerton, CA police on July 5, 2011. The two officers involved were tried and acquitted.
https://twitter.com/_the_small_axe_/sta ... 0621383680

"but we’re going to hunt down that last point-one percent and say: ‘you’ve gotta get inside, you gotta cut it out, and you gotta distance.’” —Mayor Garcetti
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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:41 pm

Michael wrote:
And, if I kneel on someone's neck for eight minutes, I guarantee it'll leave a mark.

Autopsy found no bruises or injuries on the neck, so how much pressure did he apply, where, and for how long? Autopsy is the primary way to measure it as far as I know.

Well, if the force wasn't excessive, it was sufficient.

I think that is the crux of the case, is whether or not the force is considered excessive and sufficient to have caused death, and after that there is negligence not to render aid once he stopped moving and talking.

In most cases, police are not prosecuted and rarely convicted even when they are found negligent.

For example, four years ago a white man was killed by police in Dallas in August 2016 in circumstances similar to those of George Floyd's death. His name was Tony Timpa. Three officers were indicted, but the charges were dismissed by the D.A. The family pressed for three years in order to get the body camera footage released, which came more than two years after the dismissal of charges.
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/statu ... 7398030336



Daniel Shaver was unarmed and executed by Mesa, AZ police in a hotel hallway on January 18, 2016. The shooter was acquitted.
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/statu ... 5923309569



Kelly Thomas was unarmed and beaten to death by Fullerton, CA police on July 5, 2011. The two officers involved were tried and acquitted.
https://twitter.com/_the_small_axe_/sta ... 0621383680






Kelly Thomas (April 5, 1974 – July 10, 2011) was a homeless man diagnosed with schizophrenia who lived on the streets of Fullerton, California. He died after succumbing to injuries while being attacked by six members of the Fullerton Police Department, on July 5, 2011.[2] Thomas was taken to St. Jude Medical Center before being transferred to the UC Irvine Medical Center, where he was comatose on arrival and not expected to recover. He never regained consciousness, and died on July 10, 2011.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... wn%20blood.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: prone restraining

Postby jimmy on Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:45 pm

dear lord,

let us see clearly the things that we know are wrong within ourselves...
and
let us overlook compassionately the things that we think are wrong within our brethren...

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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:02 pm

Steve James wrote:The defense doesn't have to prove anything. If keeping a detainee in that position for eight minutes is standard, then there should be lots of other examples.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpb9rs-ttOk&t=5s


the trainer talks about liability in training people to use this position might face should something go wrong
or it's misapplied.

In watching the clip, the trainer seems very comfortable speaking with both knees on the demonstrators back
very close to the neck..
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Re: prone restraining

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:03 pm

jimmy wrote:dear lord,

let us see clearly the things that we know are wrong within ourselves...
and
let us overlook compassionately the things that we think are wrong within our brethren...



Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tEUmmYDUfA
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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