Statues and symbols

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 pm

The Organisation “Humanisterna”(the humanists) in Sweden advocates for a new Swedish flag the cross on the flag according to them stands for oppression,they point to that Sweden is no longer an christian nation and also the flag is not including he many new cultures and religious beliefs that’s now found its ways to Sweden.. The article is in Swedish but I link it so no one believes I ade up this story ......For me personally, im fine with the flag as it is, for me the cross is an ancient sun symbol and it’s perfectly fit with it’s a yellow cross on a sky blue background. https://www.dagen.se/nyheter/forslag-ta ... -1.1742934
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:02 am

I read the article. His argument is interesting, but I'd look at it differently. From what I know of Christian history, Sweden was a pagan culture a thousand years after the beginnings of organized Christianity. Remember, the Norsemen first became famous for attacking Christian monasteries. Anyway, the point is that Sweden, like most of northern Europe, was converted to Christianity by Christians. There were probably a few conflicts in the process.

So, the symbol of the cross does represent a sort of oppression (even in Europe), as well as being the sign that Crusaders carried to war in the Holy Land. So, sending troops to Saudi Arabia carrying that sign would be a no no, and some Muslims elsewhere might take it as an insult. However, the cross is a symbol --meaning that it can be taken in more than one way-- and that means positively and negatively.

I don't have an opinion on the Swedish flag except that the Swedish people need to decide. Frankly, if they want a truly western or Swedish symbol, they'd use something from the pre-Christian period. That's not to satisfy complaints about the cross, but to create something that was originally Swedish. Afa being inclusive, I don't know about that. But, you mentioned something about the cross being a symbol for the sun. Ime, the sun is usually expressed (in cave paintings, etc) as a circle. There is a circle with a cardinal cross inside called a "sun cross." To some people, it's way more sinister than a Christian cross, or even a Greek Orthodox cross.

Otoh, since ancient times, the simple circle has symbolized the sun, and it's very inclusive. OK, the Japanese have sort of used that idea. :) At any rate, the cross doesn't make anything or anyone more or less Christian. Well, if we were talking about the Vatican flag, it'd be different. We grew up thinking that Sweden was a hotbed for atheists, more like France than Italy.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:14 am

Hey, my curiosity led me to look up the history of the Swedish flag.

According to early modern legend,[citation needed][year needed] the 12th-century King Eric IX saw a golden cross in the sky as he landed in Finland during the First Swedish Crusade in 1157. Seeing this as a sign from God he adopted the golden cross against a blue background as his banner.

It has been suggested that the Swedish origin legend is chosen to counter a parallel origin story for the Danish flag, also recorded in the 16th century. According to this theory,[citation needed] the Swedish flag was created during the reign of King Charles VIII, who also introduced the coat of arms of Sweden in 1442. The national coat of arms is a combination of King Albert's coat of arms of 1364 and King Magnus III's coat of arms of 1275, and is blue divided quarterly by a golden cross pattée.

Other historians[who?] claim that the Swedish flag was blue with a white cross before 1420, and became blue with a golden cross only during the early reign King Gustav I, who deposed King Christian II in 1521.

...
The exact age of the Swedish flag is not known, but the oldest recorded pictures of a blue cloth with a yellow cross date from the early 16th century, during the reign of King Gustav I.[citation needed] The first legal description of the flag was made in a royal warrant of 19 April 1562 as "yellow in a cross fashioned on blue".[10] As stipulated in a royal warrant of 1569, the yellow cross was always to be borne on Swedish battle standards and banners. Prior to this, a similar flag appeared in the coat of arms of King John III's duchy, which is today Southwest Finland. The same coat of arms is still used by the province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Sweden#Mythology
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm

However, there were no “Sweden” during the pagan Viking times, back then there were a couple of smaller “kingdoms” occupying the land that later would become Sweden.
It was not until they had become Christianized when the two major areas of Götaland and Svealand merged to become ‘Svea Rike’- Sverige(Sweden)

Anyway, as I previously stated in a slightly different way, the cross is an ancient symbol said to symbolize the Sun. In slightly different shapes it has been used all over the globe in ancient times. The swastika is a cross/sun symbol that was used in pagan times, also by the early Vikings, but that cross would really be controversial for Sweden to adapt today. As I read in the news lately, the Finnish Air Force still has an yellow swastika on some of their planes, they supposedly got it from Sweden(some time before there was any nazi Germany in sight).
Anyway, as I wrote earlier the yellow cross on an sky blue background as the Swedish flag is design is an perfect sun symbol, and as such the Swedish flag does not exclude anyone.
Yes that story about the King’s vision of an golden cross in the sky shows that he might have understood the true meaning of the cross, but I think he got some help from the church with that.


There is another Swedish national symbol almost as old as the flag that is widely used - Three yellow(golden) crowns on an blue background. But that one is used as or in the the coat of arms/shield of Sweden. However that symbol could be the more controversial if any of the two should be seen as controversial, it holds more intriguing histories.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:53 pm

Several Scandinavian countries have crosses on them. If you're saying that the Swedish flag shouldn't change, cool. I see no reason why it should change. Otoh, I don't see any particular reason why it shouldn't, if Swedish people decide to. To me, the cross doesn't represent Sweden, Finland, Norway or Denmark in any special way. It does represent Christianity, and that religion can be inclusive, but its practitioners have given it a bad reputation.

Yeah, the FInns did get rid of their air force swastika. But, as you know, there's a history why they used it in the first place. They used it since WW1, long before Nazism. They kept it during WW2 because Stalin tried to invade Finland, so the Finns allied with Germany against the Soviet Union. Anyway, it made their planes look like they were from WW2

Well, the swastika (specifically the crooked/hooked cross) is an ancient design, but nine times out of ten, people in the US who want to wear it sympathize with the Nazi symbol. Hey, it's a symbol; that's what they do. It's like the crucifix people wear around their necks. Does it represent death or life, and execution or a resurrection? You could even argue that it's both, but it's not absolutely one or the other. It's never "just" the image. If someone believes Nazi ideology, the flag he waves doesn't matter.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:37 pm

Now I think you know much more than me about ancient symbols and their meaning, so it’s interesting to read your opinions about the matter. It’s an interesting topic.

Wasn’t the cross adopted into Christianity some hundred years after christianity reached Europe, the original symbol was the fish ? Which actually also represent celestial matters, since the birth of Christ was at the time we went into the age of the Pisces. Yes it’s perhaps time we change symbols since we now enter the age of Aquarius, or perhaps we are evolved enough to stop mind our minds on such matters to create new symbols. But anyway keep an look out for new worldly symbols that may come around soon.
I read quite recently the “crucifixions” the Romans did was actually done on just a pole stuck in the ground or on a tree, the crucifix thing was an after constructed story. I believe that Christianity was somewhat changed in order to be more easily accepted by “pagan” Europeans, to something they could already relate to ?
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:24 am

Well, yeah, the Gospels say that Jesus was crucified, but on a tree/pole ("rood"), not necessarily a cross. And, if there was a "cross" piece, nobody knows where it was exactly. But, cross makes more sense when translated into English. You could be right that the cross was adopted because it was already a common pagan symbol. Or, it could be the opposite, and it was a symbol that was safe because it was new. Putting the figure of Jesus on a cross makes it specifically Christian.

Some early Christians marked the foreheads with crosses at times, much like Catholics do on Ash Wednesday. However, the fish image was a sign, not a symbol. I.e., when Christians were forced to hide their religion, they used the sign of the fish to show they were safe. It was like a secret handshake. There are different explanations for why they chose the fish, but one is that the Greek letters for fish formed an anagram for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior."

Yep, Eastern Christianity is different from Western Christianity. It's an iconic 1500 year old story. The Russian cross is different.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:53 pm

Came across this, which seem quite plausible that the Egyptian ‘Ankh’ could probably have been the inspiration for the Christian cross.
. Scholar Adele Nozedar writes: The volume of meaning that can be squeezed from such a simple symbol is awe-inspiring. The ankh represents the male and female genitalia, the sun coming over the horizon, and the union of heaven and earth. This association with the sun means that the ankh is traditionally drawn in gold - the color of the sun - and never in silver, which relates to the moon. Putting aside the complexities of these separate elements, though, what does the ankh look like? Its resemblance to a key gives a clue to another meaning of this magical symbol. The Egyptians believed that the afterlife was as meaningful as the present one and the ankh provided the key to the gates of death and what lay beyond (18).
https://www.ancient.eu/Ankh/
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:03 pm

That went fast. Michelangelo would have been awestruck how fast statues of such resemblance can be made today. https://www.yahoo.com/news/statue-blm-p ... 04026.html
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby roger hao on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 am

Her statue was removed next day.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:21 am

Afa the statues, they come and go. If people want to know history, they should read a book :)

Now, the Copts use of the ankh probably does come from their connection to ancient Egyptian symbols. Though, the ankh means life. The Christian adoption of the cross as a symbol of their religion specifically has more to do with Constantine and the beginnings of the Byzantine Empire and its split from the western Roman Empire. It's a long story, but the short of it is that Constantine said he saw a vision of a giant cross before a battle. He connected it to Christianity and promised to make his empire Christian, and he adopted the cross as its emblem.

The Eastern empire of Constantine controlled north Africa and the middle east, so Syrians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians became part of that empire's church. Coptic Christians in Egypt could see the similarity to the ankh, but I don't think they confused the two, or used the ankh as the model for their cross. In fact, Copts use the Greek type (square) cross mostly. Of course, if you read the work of the scholars cited in the article you posted, they'll argue that the idea of resurrection itself comes from ancient Egypt via the Greeks.

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby roger hao on Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:39 am

Jesus statue beheaded -

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:01 pm

Oh well, ever read the Second Commandment?
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:33 am

roger hao wrote:Jesus statue beheaded -
he was condemned to a pretty ignominious death with his head served up on a platter
the decendants of the templars gettin even https://thetemplarknight.com/2011/03/31 ... t-templar/
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:55 am

There are loads of Christian sects that don't believe in worshiping images or statues of JesusBut, Jesus would be the first down to knock down a statue of himself.:)
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