Statues and symbols

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:33 am

Um, there is often a plaque, but it might not offer any context. It's not that no one knows the story; it's that some people do. Anyway, in 2017, it was suggested that the statues have more complete explanations.

Columbus may be getting an asterisk.

Facing mounting criticism of his plan to remove some of the city’s monuments — possibly including the Christopher Columbus statue in Columbus Circle — Mayor de Blasio went to Plan B on Monday.

For the first time, the mayor said that instead of the heave-ho, contested monuments might get plaques that offer explanations of the historical figures they depict.
...
Some might gain historical context with an explanatory plaque, while the most divisive monuments would be recommended for removal.

The mayor held up the National Park Service as an agency that has been good at providing context for displays.


It's not less history; it's more.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby grzegorz on Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:50 pm

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:56 pm

If it’s not Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five’s ‘The Message’ or a Beasty Boy’s Video I’m not going to click on that link, can’t really stand the HipHop noice..
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby everything on Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:50 am

Essentially: we believe some humans are not actually full humans; we are racist and want that view and practice to remain institutionalized. This anti-human view has to go away. This is the kind of view of the people shown in statues in public places in the 21st century. VILE AND DISGUSTING THAT SOMEONE WOULD STILL ARGUE FOR IT. YOU ARE SAYING THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT HUMANS BASED ON SKIN COLOR. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:23 am

the thread is about statues and symbols and slavery in the Americas (?) anyway, i again take my freedom to break in with some swedish matters, the one of African slaves in sweden.although slavedom had been abolished in the mid of 1300 it happened later on that african slaves ended up in Sweden - here is the story of Gustav Badin http://www.badinsecret.com/the-real-badin.html
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:06 am

Trick wrote:the thread is about statues and symbols and slavery in the Americas (?) anyway, i again take my freedom to break in with some swedish matters, the one of African slaves in sweden.although slavedom had been abolished in the mid of 1300 it happened later on that african slaves ended up in Sweden - here is the story of Gustav Badin http://www.badinsecret.com/the-real-badin.html


Nope. It's about statues and symbols. Thank you very much for the link to the story of Badin. I'd never heard of him. I did know that Africans were known by and traded with Vikings long before the 13th century. There were even small Viking settlements in North Africa in the 11th century.

But, here's a symbol. https://www.history.com/news/islamic-ri ... king-grave
From A.D. 800 to the 11th century, the Vikings roamed the world’s seas, covering greater distances than any sailors before them. Leif Eriksson, son of Erik the Red, is thought to have led the first European expedition westward to the North American continent, nearly five centuries before Christopher Columbus arrived in the Bahamas. There is plenty of written evidence suggesting that Vikings also made contact with the early Muslim world, traveling as far as Constantinople and even Baghdad. While in Western Europe they became known as fearsome warriors bent on looting and pillaging wherever they went, the Vikings interacted with the Arab region mostly as merchants and traders, offering goods such as honey and fur in return for the silver they prized so highly.

Because written accounts of Viking contact with the Muslim world were usually accompanied by references to such “giants and dragons,” however, there could be some doubt they were entirely truthful. The ring found in the 9th-century Viking grave in Birka provides rare physical evidence of this contact between two ancient worlds. In an article published this week in the journal Scanning, researchers confirmed it is the only ring with an Arabic inscription ever found at a Scandinavian archaeological site. Birka, located some 19 miles (30 km) from Stockholm on the island of Björkö, was a center for trade in the Viking Age and was preserved as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1993.


Hey, where's the statue of Leif Ericsson? Is there a statue of Badin anywhere?
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:35 am

Yes Constantinople was well known to the Vikings who had established trade routes to there, also many took work as mercenaries that evolved into the Varingian Guard which was an major battle force of the Byzantine empire, so the would have had knowledge of Africa.
They knew well of the Middle East which they called Särkland/Serkland(saracen land).
It’s not really known if Vikings took slaves from Africa or the middle east ? But it’s well known they had and traded slaves(trälar) of their own and other European ethnicity.

Here’s a well known historical eyewitness account involving Vikings and their social hierarchy from top to Trälar, and an middle easterner. - https://www.ancient-origins.net/history ... ain-002865
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:08 am

Steve James wrote:
Hey, where's the statue of Leif Ericsson? Is there a statue of Badin anywhere?

Leif Eriksson was an Norwegian/Icelandic Viking so I don’t think there’s any statues of him in Sweden. However on Iceland there is one, and also in the US supposedly, Boston, Seattle...
I just found out about the Kensington Runestone, and there’s a tv show hosting Peter Stormare who investigates the mystery around it - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9072206/
A statue of Gustav Badin there is not in Sweden but I think there might be a portrait of him at the Royal Castle.
But statues of King Gustaf the 3rd who saw and treated Badin as his brother there are in Sweden, and they are now by some targeted by the idea to be removed, because(I will guess) when King Gustaf reign he bought the St Bartholomy island in the West Indies from France on which there were African slaves. It was sold back to France some 90 years later.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:53 am

It’s not really known if Vikings took slaves from Africa or the middle east ? But it’s well known they had and traded slaves(trälar) of their own and other European ethnicity.


:) There weren't any plantations in Europe or Scandinavia, so the slaves there were servants. Vikings traded people they captured in battles, and Africans traded slaves captured in battle. Women were often the objects of exchange.

As the article on Badin suggested, Africans were often used as experiments to see whether they could be domesticated. SInce they were bought by royalty, they became wards of the royal court. They often received titles. Of course, their children were eventually absorbed into the society.

Btw, it was always found that they could, and there are examples of extraordinarily accomplished Africans in every major European country.

Ex.
Anton Wilhelm Amo or Anthony William Amo (c. 1703 – c. 1759) was an African philosopher from what is now Ghana. Amo was a teacher at the universities of Halle and Jena in Germany after studying there.

Image

Charles Ignatius Sancho (c. 1729? – 14 December 1780) was a British composer, actor, and writer. He is the only Briton of African heritage known to have been eligible and voted in an 18th-century general election through property qualifications. He gained fame in his time as "the extraordinary Negro", and to 18th-century British abolitionists he became a symbol of the humanity of Africans and immorality of the slave trade.

Image

Incidentally, probably the most famous 18th c African in Britain was Olaudah Equiano, whose English name was Gustavus Vassa. I connected his name to King Gustav, but I never knew about Badin. So, there may be some connection.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 am

Steve James wrote:
Incidentally, probably the most famous 18th c African in Britain was Olaudah Equiano, whose English name was Gustavus Vassa. I connected his name to King Gustav, but I never knew about Badin. So, there may be some connection.
Image

he was(seemingly)named after Gustav Vasa(b 1496) the King who united Sweden to the Sweden we more or less still have today, he was the first King named Gustav, the royal line in sweden up till today trace more or less their ancestral line to Gustav Vasa, so all monarks up till today held and holds the name Gustav
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:13 am

about plantations....During Gustav Badins life sweden had an big agricultural reform from several small scale farms changing into bigger more structured farms, an attempt to meet the ever growing food demand for an rapidly growing population.....i dont know if such big farms could be compared to what an plantation in the US was....however with this a new class of labour was established out of the lower class, the new lower class was named 'Statare' which ment they where 'payed in food and housing' for their work on these new farms......They where hired for a one year term only during which the farm owner held absolut control and power over them, ..from early on in the late 1700 and troughout the 1800 a 'Statare' lived under very poor conditions, the housings provided for them was basically shacks and the food ransoning to them where meager work days long and hard....not untill tje early 1900 conditions for the life of a statare became a little better..however they where not subjected to the same workers rights labourers in the industry had, for example 8h work days....not untill 1944 the Statare class was abolished........Statare was not sold or given ad commodities so they where not slaves, but from written accounts about their living standars and the absolut pover their employer (farm owner)had over them, maybe one could compare it with a slaves life on an plantation in the US ?
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:32 am

Statare was not sold or given ad commodities so they where not slaves, but from written accounts about their living standars and the absolut pover their employer (farm owner)had over them, maybe one could compare it with a slaves life on an plantation in the US ?


Kings and emperors have had absolute power over their subjects since forever --since Babylon or Ancient Egypt.

Your "statare" would be somewhat equivalent in the US to "indentured laborers" (when slavery was in effect). If you were a criminal or owed money, you could be sent ("transported") to the Americas to work off the debt. After a certain number of years, you'd earn your freedom. In the meantime, your owner could treat you just like a slave, or even worse. African slaves were expensive pieces of property, and most of a slaveholder's wealth. He depended on them to produce his crop. Criminals, debtors, and Irish were cheap. The difference of course was that slaves and their children were slaves for life forever. White indentured servants could just run away and blend in or become pioneers.

But, the big difference is that there were no sugar or tobacco plantations requiring large numbers of workers. And, workers in Europe would expect to be paid. The money was in the New World. The climate made the economy. Sugar still comes from the same places, and the working conditions are still the same. So, whatever they were growing in Sweden answers your question.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:53 am

. Kings and emperors have had absolute power over their subjects since forever --since Babylon or Ancient Egypt.
. Actually the Swedish Parlament had a lot to say, the King had to put forward his requests to it. However back then the Parlament consisted strictly of representatives from the noble class. King Gustaf the third thought the Parlament had begun to grant too much issues to their own favors, so the King made a coup against the nobility and rendered them quite powerless in parliamentary matters.
King Gustav declared himself as the first free citizen of Sweden and made some good reforms to the benefits of the people/commoners which enraged the nobility. He made some major crazy decisions too which put Sweden as a nation at risk.
A mixture of his good and bad reforms and decisions ended up to the assassination of him
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:02 am

Steve James wrote:[

But, the big difference is that there were no sugar or tobacco plantations requiring large numbers of workers. And, workers in Europe would expect to be paid. The money was in the New World. The climate made the economy. Sugar still comes from the same places, and the working conditions are still the same. So, whatever they were growing in Sweden answers your question.

Interesting that during the 1800 grain import from the Americas to Sweden made it difficult for farmers in Sweden, the already poor conditions for the “Statare” became even poorer...as I explained the new farm labour class was not to be paid in money the word Stat reffed to that they where only to be “payed” in food and housing.....The poor climate that came along in Sweden during the 1800 lead to the big Swedish disapora to the USA

(Also Sweden was/(is)an big sugar producer in Europe...and also at one point was self sustained with tobacco, maybe even an exporter back then.....Although no tobacco plant producer anymore still the Swedish Match is one of the major tobacco product producer in the world.)
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:43 am

Sweden had sugar, but it was made from beets, not sugar cane. Labor on cane fields is still about the same. How is sugar produced now in Sweden? I don't know anything about beet production, is it still done in Sweden the same way?
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