China tries a Honey Trap to Ensnare me — serpentza

[GrahamB]

It's kind of hard to argue with these comments:

"In order for greedy western business people to make huge profits out of sweatshops we’ve normalised a Communist repressive regime. We’ve made a moral black hole for ourselves for money whilst ravaging our OWN country through lack of investment or loyalty to our own workers. "

"The socialists in Nazi Germany lied just as the Chinese Ambassador is doing here. Mainstream media has had this footage for a year now and only starting to ask questions. The West is complicit in the genocide that has been going on in China for years."


And also this one has some merit:

"Geez, the moralistic BBC should take a look at how the US prison system treats detainees."

[Trick]

BBC reporter: "Why are people are kneeling, blindfolded and shaven, and being lead to trains in modern China?"

What his happening here ambassador? "

Chinese Ambassador to UK: "I don't know... where did you get this video clip?"


https://twitter.com/i/status/1284784810200838145

probably from this place - https://www.bbcstudios.com/

[Bao]

BBC reporter: "Why are people are kneeling, blindfolded and shaven, and being lead to trains in modern China?"
What his happening here ambassador? "
Chinese Ambassador to UK: "I don't know... where did you get this video clip?"
https://twitter.com/i/status/1284784810200838145

I didn't see if anyone was kneeling, blindfolded or shaven. But he said that it might be prisoners being transferred from one jail to another, like what any other country does.

Edit: Found that it's probably an old video from Xinjiang of inmates transferring from Kashgar to Korla. It's likely from 2018 and made rounds on social media in 2019.

Strange that whatever clip is shown from China, here in the west, people always use their fantasy to make up the most incredible stories.

And btw, the ambassador was very calm, tried to answer but repeatedly interrupted by an unnecessarily aggressive reporter. Do british people think it's ok to treat Chinese people badly? ...Does anyone else see the irony here?

[GrahamB]

I find it really odd that you always assume the benevolence of China, Bao. What they're doing seem pretty clear to me. They're a communist country - they can do what they like with no repurcussions.

The human rights violations in China should be exposed.

At the same time, the human rights violations are only now suddely in the UK media because of Brexit - we need to pick a side - US or China and the UK is clearly going with Trump, who is in a soft war with China.

But that doesn't mean the information isn't accurate.

[Bao]

I find it really odd that you always assume the benevolence of China, Bao.

I appreciate that your objections and hope that we all can continue to discuss these matter in a nice and civilised manner. I understand that what I write is not political correct and goes against what most people believe.

I don't really assume anything. In most countries you are regarded as not guilty until you are proven otherwise. Usually in court.

What they're doing seem pretty clear to me.

The human rights violations in China should be exposed.

I have no idea what you mean. I've been travelling back and forth to China for the last 25 years. I haven't seen anything there or anything here in Western media that can convince me that any kind of persecution going on. I have said this before. i knowledge Uighurs from Xinjiang living and studying in Europe, they are free and can do the same as any other Chinese. They have the same rights and opportunities, there's no difference. If a person work hard, they can go far. There are business men from Xinjiang that are doing very well and a couple of the most popular actors/actresses on one of the most popular TV-shows are Uighurs from Xinjiang. Moslems and Tibetans live all over China, they read their own literature, as the Quran and Buddhist texts. I have good friends that are Chinese moslem and where I usually reside in China tibetans gather in the parks, socialise and do their traditional dances. Frankly, I haven't seen or even heard of one single trace of any kind of persecution and yet I have met many moslem and tibetans in China.

Also living in a country as the GB or US or Sweden, and speak about Human Rights is just laughable and hypocritical, IMO. We should first take a look at what our own countries do and not be so pompous. If we cannot take care about our own business and do nothing to change things in our own countries, yet demand other countries to do better is nothing than hypocrisy. Why not look yourself in the mirror and try focusing on taking care of your own shit?

They're a communist country - they can do what they like with no repurcussions.

So I guess they are evil? And who are "they". Now you do a great but very common generalisation that spans over to common Chinese = China communist = China bad = Chinese bad. There's a racist undertone in all of this anti-communist propaganda that I really don't like. They are Chinese, so it's ok to treat China bad.

Also, and in fact, the communist party has different fractions, with different people that have very opposite ideas. it's not as simple as "one" communism."

we need to pick a side - US or China and the UK is clearly going with Trump, who is in a soft war with China.

European countries follow the US for some reason. The US is against war on everyone. They constantly find and make up things to fine European corporations and even put people in Jail. The European countries would get much more from becoming an ally with China.

In my view, the US has done far, far worse things against humanity and against human rights than China. Constantly making problems, create wars in the world without any consideration for common people in those areas. And it's all still going on, in their own country and in others. GB and rest of Europe doesn't care the least about Human Rights, it's all hypocrisy to fool people in their own countries that they are better and "good". It's all about money and finding ways to quarrel and make problems for those that are not allied with the US. What they do is driving China, Russia and Iran together with many other countries on their side. This "soft" war hasn't even begun.

But that doesn't mean the information isn't accurate.

I have no idea of what information you take about. Everything presented here is blurry and contradicting. The interpretations of what people see and how they judge it is mostly wrong. So what is true and how do they (who ever that is) depict "truth"?

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

I often push back against anti-China comments because they can be taken out of context and usually stem from a sort of Post Cold War paranoia. However, I don't see any reason to question the heaps of evidence which also makes perfect sense from both political and historical perspectives. It's one thing to be critical of "Western" narratives, but it's another to swallow the Partly line, hook, line, and sinker.

Twenty prisoners live in one small room. They are handcuffed, their heads shaved, every move is monitored by ceiling cameras. A bucket in the corner of the room is their toilet. The daily routine begins at 6 A.M. They are learning Chinese, memorizing propaganda songs and confessing to invented sins. They range in age from teenagers to elderly. Their meals are meager: cloudy soup and a slice of bread.

Torture – metal nails, fingernails pulled out, electric shocks – takes place in the “black room.” Punishment is a constant. The prisoners are forced to take pills and get injections. It’s for disease prevention, the staff tell them, but in reality they are the human subjects of medical experiments. Many of the inmates suffer from cognitive decline. Some of the men become sterile. Women are routinely raped.

Such is life in China’s reeducation camps, as reported in rare testimony provided by Sayragul Sauytbay (pronounced: Say-ra-gul Saut-bay, as in “bye”), a teacher who escaped from China and was granted asylum in Sweden. Few prisoners have succeeded in getting out of the camps and telling their story. Sauytbay’s testimony is even more extraordinary, because during her incarceration she was compelled to be a teacher in the camp. China wants to market its camps to the world as places of educational programs and vocational retraining, but Sauytbay is one of the few people who can offer credible, firsthand testimony about what really goes on in the camps.

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.pre ... -1.7994216

[Trick]

uhmm.......i do know about chinese that has come to sweden to claim theyre been treated bad by the chinese government just so to get asylum and then a swedish passport.And after that every now and then travel back to visit family members and friends.......peple from many areas of the world follow this arragement........Sayragul Sauytbay of course hope for his family to become swedish citizens........Do i sound cold hearted when saying such , yes probably to many ears. ...i might have pulled a story too if i had little and knew i could have more elsewhere if the story fit

[Bao]

... I don't see any reason to question the heaps of evidence which also makes perfect sense from both political and historical perspectives. It's one thing to be critical of "Western" narratives, but it's another to swallow the Partly line, hook, line, and sinker.

Personally, I swallow nothing. I don't make judgment from what anyone of the party says and I don't listen to them. I look at China from a bigger perspective, mostly based on my own experiences. Some things makes sense, some other doesn't some things makes sense, but the interpretation here on the west is off. Even normal universities and colleges in China can look like it did in the BBC documentary about the reeducation camp. The students in the universities cannot go and come as they please and live together in small rooms. In the days, the areas are kept secure, you need ID to enter. In the evenings and nights, no one can leave or enter.

...
Torture – metal nails, fingernails pulled out, electric shocks – ... Punishment is a constant. The prisoners are forced to take pills and get injections. It’s for disease prevention, the staff tell them, but in reality they are the human subjects of medical experiments. ...

Such is life in China’s reeducation camps, as reported ...

The problem I have with this kind of articles is often how things are presented. Here, the rhetorics aim is to make everything look as this is the everyday normal situation in these camps.

However, if you look at the BBC documentary, some of what you see there might be staged, but we know that the "inmates" go home every weekend to their families. We know this for fact because this was something the BBC reporters discovered when they went to the camp again unreported trying to take them by surprise.

They also spoke to a Uighur woman that had graduated. She was treated badly, but she didn't even mention something even close daily tortures and rapes.

The subject in the article said that they didn't even know where they were. This also doesn't make sense. If that person went anywhere it could have been some kind of prison facility, it was not one of those camps. The people leaving those schools always know form where they left and they have papers on it.

Also, the descriptions about the torture is way too generalised, too generic. If there were even one original story or put into some kind of narrative it might make it different and more believable.

So I do have reasons to question this article, both the content and how it's presented. Reading this article, I have no idea if this person was really subject for torture or not, and I have no idea why or where this should have taken place.

The depiction of these camps here in west differ a lot and don't match. So if you speak about heaps of evidence, exactly which one of hundreds of different versions do you want to believe in?

uhmm.......i do know about chinese that has come to sweden to claim theyre been treated bad by the chinese government just so to get asylum and then a swedish passport.
...
.Do i sound cold hearted when saying such , yes probably to many ears. ...i might have pulled a story too if i had little and knew i could have more elsewhere if the story fit

No, not cold hearted, it's a fact. It happens, and the stories they tell never match each other. But I don't want to judge the person in the article, I know too little and the purpose of the article is obviously very clear.

[Steve James]

Who would both/all of y'all believe or accept as a source?

[Bao]

Who would both/all of y'all believe or accept as a source?

Again, if every description about those camps, what and how things happened there, are different, what would you choose to believe? Who's version?

They can't all be true. So maybe the truth is something in between this or that? But the, truth between what and how much to either side?

No, I don't believe in persecution of Uighurs in China and I don't believe that people are taken to those reeducation camps to be tortured and raped. I cannot believe this because every story about this are different, they don't match. Why would you want to believe anything that isn't even slightly verified? Just because there are many different stories to pick between?

There are thousands of books about spirituality, ghosts and how to develop magical powers. Do you suggest that I should believe in fairy tales just because there are many people writing that shit and many people believing them?

[Steve James]

I just need to know which source you and your opponent would accept. If there isn't one, then yeah it's what I choose to believe. You understand that there's no reason for me to disbelieve the reports. Everything you say about the US is true.

[marvin8]

FRONTLINE PBS | Official
Premiered Apr 7, 2020

A revealing look at the Chinese government’s mass imprisonment of an estimated two million Uyghurs and other Muslims, with undercover footage inside China's secretive Xinjiang region.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM1DjkPWtj0

[Steve James]

How do I decide? Let me put it like this. I allow that both sides believe they are correct, and their claims have "some" truth. The question then is how much evidence there is for either side. There is not going to be any evidence of "no" atrocities, but the question is whether there is "any."

It's a given that there are human rights abuses in the US and committed by the US. Though, the US won't call them abuses. China is no different in that respect. The argument "this doesn't happen in China" is not going to convince anyone who believes it does.

To avoid confirmation bias, those who don't believe these abuses exist should look for evidence. Those who believe it's there should try to find evidence that it doesn't exist. Then both can compare notes to find the sources that come closest to agreeing. I'll trust that source.

[Trick]

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/isis-th ... interests/

https://the-levant.com/china-targeted-isis/

https://www.workers.org/2019/12/44963/

Sayragul Sauytbay says : Terrorist attacks were perpetrated in the province as far back as the 1990s and the early 2000s. Following a series of suicide attacks between 2014 and 2016,

[Trick]

Who would both/all of y'all believe or accept as a source?

The best would be to go to Xinjiang to see for oneself