what is energy

Rum, beer, women, movies, nice websites, gaming, etc., without interrupting the flow of martial threads.

Re: what is energy

Postby aamc on Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:15 pm

Moving from physics to metaphysics, and in a similar vein. Entropy and Yin/Yang theory seem to me irreconcilable. You cannot have a balanced interchange between elements, if the universe is on the path to heat death.
Last edited by aamc on Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aamc
Wuji
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:33 pm

Re: what is energy

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:28 pm

The problem is that "energy" takes many forms even in physics. Light, sound, radiation, and heat are all forms of energy.

Afa qi,however, someone already pointed out that "yi leads qi." So, which is the "energy?" And, what about li?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19515
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:46 pm

Maybe energy once open a time was created or maybe it’s something thats eternal...
But for now energy is not created(I’ll guess), it just transforms. We have mastered some of its possibilities of energy transformation, there’s most certainly many more to be discovered.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:20 am

Steve James wrote: someone already pointed out that "yi leads qi." So, which is the "energy?" And, what about li?


Qi is obviously the energy. Yi is your awareness or focus, a mechanism in your brain. If you focus on any body part, your nervous system will activate that body part. Think about yi as the mechanism that activates the brain to send signals and qi as the electrical impulses that goes through the nervous system.

Yes, what about Li? Why taking Li into comparison? Li refers mostly to the untrained mechanical use of your muscles. Like tensing or exerting the muscles in your body when you lift something heavy. Or if a machine can use a lot of power or strength, you can say that the machine has a lot of "li".
Last edited by Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: what is energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:39 am

But, you've just described "li" as energy. Sure, you can say that qi is the energy, but it's the "yi" that does the work of leading it. Not to mention, many would say that thought is energy --chemically produced, and that "shen" is energy.

I think there's a problem, as already noted, in correlating "energy" as described by western physics with tcm descriptions. I'm not saying that Qi isn't energy or that it is. But, the same is true for yi, li, and shen. In my understanding of their relationship, the qi must be moved. It's not the mover.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19515
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: what is energy

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:03 am

Steve James wrote:But, you've just described "li" as energy. Sure, you can say that qi is the energy, but it's the "yi" that does the work of leading it. Not to mention, many would say that thought is energy --chemically produced, and that "shen" is energy.

I think there's a problem, as already noted, in correlating "energy" as described by western physics with tcm descriptions. I'm not saying that Qi isn't energy or that it is. But, the same is true for yi, li, and shen. In my understanding of their relationship, the qi must be moved. It's not the mover.


This understanding is incorrect.
Its said the Qi is lead, not moved.

The Qi is already moving in different pathways on its own.
TCM is based on working with this movement.

"Yi" is not thought nor is what is called "shen".
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8451
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:20 am

Bao wrote:
Steve James wrote: someone already pointed out that "yi leads qi." So, which is the "energy?" And, what about li?


Qi is obviously the energy. Yi is your awareness or focus, a mechanism in your brain. If you focus on any body part, your nervous system will activate that body part. Think about yi as the mechanism that activates the brain to send signals and qi as the electrical impulses that goes through the nervous system.

Yes, what about Li? Why taking Li into comparison? Li refers mostly to the untrained mechanical use of your muscles. Like tensing or exerting the muscles in your body when you lift something heavy. Or if a machine can use a lot of power or strength, you can say that the machine has a lot of "li".

but this is transformation of energy ? yi - qi - li.... heres another albert quote, einstein or not, i guess doesnt matter 8-)
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.
..........ashes to ashes, dust to dust
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:34 am

Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:52 am

but this is transformation of energy ? yi - qi - li


Yep, in the western model.

The Qi is already moving in different pathways on its own.


I agree that the qi is moving, but it's not always because of yi. Qi moves in the blood and breath, but yi doesn't move the blood or make us breathe. The yi leads qi model is a way to intentionally direct it and use it in specific ways ("for health or self defense").

Emotions can cause the qi to move, but that's not using yi. What about emotional energy? Anger, fear, seeing a loved one in danger, all have and can create energy. Qi can't be separated from them, but calling qi the energy doesn't really clarify anything. I mean; it can be debated forever. Generally, there are specific ways to measure energy in most of its forms. When there's one we can all agree on for qi, the debate will be settled. I'd love for that to happen, but I think it's a bit like measuring spirit (or shen).
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19515
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:59 am

Steve James wrote:I'm not saying that Qi isn't energy or that it is. But, the same is true for yi, li, and shen.


In western science everything is energy. Your physical body as well. I don't see the point in labelling everything with the same term. Then why differentiate things with different terms? :-\

In my understanding of their relationship, the qi must be moved. It's not the mover.


I think you contradict yourself. That everything is energy correlates to the Chinese idea that everything is Qi. In that case, it can be lead, it can be moved, it moves by itself.

You can't use a general terminology on one hand and the choose one specific thing do define in detail on the other hand and make them match. You seem to take one theory here and a completely different from there, they don't match and all of it becomes very confused. No offence, just IMHO as I have no idea want you want to say.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: what is energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:36 am

In western science everything is energy.

That everything is energy correlates to the Chinese idea that everything is Qi.


You win. Everything is energy, so qi is energy; and everything is qi.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19515
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:50 am

Don't give up so easily. There's more to quarrel about. ;D

but this is transformation of energy ? yi - qi - li


Yep, in the western model.


In the Chinese version it's Jing - qi - shen if you speak about transformation. Li has no place in this equation. Yi does not transform into anything. Xin, not yi, transform jing into q and then into shen. Yi is the "idea" in your head that leads your movement and qi is what get your body to move. Li is a special way to use your body, not a general way it's not something that has anything to do with transformation. It doesn't mean force in the same way.

And besides, if we are going to explain western science with Chinese terminology, we should use modern Chinese. You just don't use the term "li" as "force" in Chinese if we speak about science. In Chinese you need to specify what kind of force or "li" you mean. 力 or li is a character, but the words used for "force" in science consists mostly of two characters. You need to know the correct words.

张力速度关系曲线 is the chinese expression for the force velocity relation curve Here you use 张力 which actually means tension or pulling force.

量力, Liangli, is used for velocity etc.

And energy is 能量, nengliang. Einsteins formula E=Mc2 in Chinese is called "质能互换公式" or ”the Mass-energy exchange formula”

E/=/M/x/C/2
能量/等于/质量/乘于/光速/平方
Last edited by Bao on Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: what is energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:05 am

In the Chinese version it's Jing - qi - shen if you speak about transformation. Li has no place in this equation.


I only know the version yi leads qi, and it's often translated as the mind leads the energy --and that's how it works in tcc. I threw in li, but I didn't mean it as part of a transformation. "Li (brute muscular force) leading the qi" is the opposite of what we want. Shen is necessary. It's the tiger hiding behind the lady. Bruce Lee might have called it "emotional content."

Anyway, I'm still not sure it's helpful to mix the models.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19515
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:03 pm

Steve James wrote:
In western science everything is energy.

That everything is energy correlates to the Chinese idea that everything is Qi.


You win. Everything is energy, so qi is energy; and everything is qi.

Yes here i too confess, Qi equals the “western” term energy. Qi Manifest matter n different shapes......However about Yi, is Yi bigger/the origins of Qi. If there is something as an soul where would that fit in the energy hierarchy pyramid ?
Last edited by Trick on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: what is energy

Postby Dmitri on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:34 am

Steve James wrote:
In western science everything is energy.

That everything is energy correlates to the Chinese idea that everything is Qi.


You win. Everything is energy, so qi is energy; and everything is qi.


So, like, that guy who asked "what is energy?" in the OP, is the energy... Whoa, duuuude... 'Cause, like, he's everything, but also, like, part of everything, at the same time... Pass the bong, dude...
Last edited by Dmitri on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9672
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

PreviousNext

Return to Off the Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests