Will There Be War?

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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:25 pm

Well, at least China doesn't create troubles and war all over the world killing millions of civilians just to sell weapons. IMO, there's no bigger terrorist country than the USA.


If I wanted to study it, I'd look for the distribution of troops and military assets. However, there are those who suggest that China has aspirations beyond Asia. I think that's an old-fashioned view of a world war. China can win by being successful economically. Nuclear wars are untenable.

I also just don't buy the China as US's number one threat. If a friendship can develop between Kim and 45, then one wonders how Xi is suddenly the enemy. I don't think it's because of the form of government.

And, the talk of US military might is well-taken. But, it means that --like China-- there's no chance of an invasion from anyone. Economically, we're bound to lose our number one status, but that won't translate into an inferior quality of life. Shucks, if Walmart only sold products "Made in the USA," ... they'd cost more :)
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby jimmy on Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:14 pm

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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Strange on Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:23 pm

Steve James wrote:Jmo, but I agree that Xi has nothing to gain from attacking Taiwan militarily.


interesting to hear this... from another perspective
I do not think that this is accurate... and I am not sure even a Taiwanese would agree :)
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:01 pm

Well, Xi could attack Taiwan anytime he wanted --except for the potential repercussions, particularly economic. But, if there were a shooting war, let alone a nuclear war, what exactly would Xi gain?

My point was only that I won't attribute any of Xi's actions to he or the PRC being essentially evil or with bad intentions. Just like the US, the PRC has interests, one of which is maintaining dominance in the region. If China started sending or selling arms to Cuba, what would the US do? Otoh, what would the US gain by taking over Cuba?

Yeah, I know. Taiwan's only real threat is the PRC. But, I think if it were advantageous, Xi would do it.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:29 pm

Strange wrote:
Bao wrote: No one is going to do anything. Xi has no interest in, or any gain to, attack Taiwan. That is again only some fantasy that the US made up.


:)

I’m absolutely with Bao on this. If there would happen an mainland China attack on the province of Taiwan, it most certainly will be an USA attack disguised as an Chinese....some sort of Boston tea party disguise...
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:24 am

::)

i am glad you guys have come to a consensus...
pass it up the line and let china know about it..
maybe their actions can be congruent with what you imagine...
it would be a safer world...
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bill on Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:16 am

Trick wrote:
Strange wrote:
Bao wrote: No one is going to do anything. Xi has no interest in, or any gain to, attack Taiwan. That is again only some fantasy that the US made up.


:)

I’m absolutely with Bao on this. If there would happen an mainland China attack on the province of Taiwan, it most certainly will be an USA attack disguised as an Chinese....some sort of Boston tea party disguise...

One truly has to admire the genius of Chinese propaganda!!
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:26 pm

Bill wrote: One truly has to admire the genius of Chinese propaganda!!


Well, what the US say about China is of course the most politically correct thing to believe. However, I am not Chinese and I read anti-Chinese propaganda every single day. Most people around me believe some or most of it. However, I’ve studied China, its history and politics. I also know Xi’s background and history, as well as what has happened in China and how it has changed the last 20 years. I don’t know if Chinese propaganda is very efficient as no one here believe anything they say. I choose to make my own conclusions based on my own experience and knowledge. It bothers me little if others come to different conclusions, the future will tell who is right.

But still, I feel a bit sad about the rage against China and about how politicians here in the West handle their relationships with this country. My worries are mostly about selfish reasons as I want to be able to travel in China as freely as possible as well as being able to make business there without too much trouble. But I also believe that the West is extremely naive and don’t understand how China builds relationships with Russia, East-Asian countries and others. Right now it’s the West who divides the World into two very different camps, and if this continues, the outcome will not be good for anyone
Last edited by Bao on Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Strange on Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:05 pm

Bill wrote:One truly has to admire the genius of Chinese propaganda!!


:)
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:50 pm

Bill wrote:
Trick wrote:quote="Bao"] No one is going to do anything. Xi has no interest in, or any gain to, attack Taiwan. That is again only some fantasy that the US made up.



I’m absolutely with Bao on this. If there would happen an mainland China attack on the province of Taiwan, it most certainly will be an USA attack disguised as an Chinese....some sort of Boston tea party disguise...[/quote]
One truly has to admire the genius of Chinese propaganda!![/quote]
Yes I admire it too, especially the cool and true posters they used to make back in the days, they’re far more admirably in not only coolness but of course also in trueness over the US ones that lack big in trueness..... :)
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:10 am

Trick wrote:
Yes I admire it too, especially the cool and true posters they used to make back in the days, they’re far more admirably in not only coolness but of course also in trueness over the US ones that lack big in trueness..... :)



speaking of back in the day -- maybe a return to these awesome values and logic are the way to go...

not sure you can access this website from where you live -- maybe it has been censored..
but it is a fun read - will post the text below - but you miss the awesome old school pictures and posters you love


https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/d ... uitbaskets

How a Fruit Basket From Mao Made China Mad for Mangoes
Regifting the fruit created a potent political symbol.

When authoritarian leaders obsess over a particular food, it can change how a country eats and drinks for generations. This week, we’re looking at five cases of dictator food projects and what they reveal about the power of food. Next: how Stalin created a champagne for the working class.

In August of 1968, China was suddenly gripped by a mania for mangoes. The fruit was praised in poems, worshipped on altars, and toured across the country like a celebrity. People posed alongside mangoes in portraits, poured tea into mango mugs, and took drags from MangGuo cigarettes. In Guizhou, thousands of peasants fought over a black-and-white mango picture. Ironically, most of the fruit’s fanatics had never tasted one. In fact, just months earlier, the mango had been virtually unknown.

The mango cult developed amid the tumult and terror of Chairman Mao’s Cultural Revolution, a decade-long crusade to purge the communist country of all remnants of capitalist thought and traditional Chinese culture. Mao’s credibility had been damaged by The Great Leap Forward—a series of agricultural and industrial reforms that led to famine and an estimated 45 million deaths. To reassert his authority and weed out political rivals, he called on Chinese youth to root out “capitalist roaders” and traces of the so-called feudal past.


The mission was eagerly embraced by millions of students, who were called Red Guards. Sporting military fatigues and red armbands, the teenage troops destroyed cultural relics, attacked people wearing “bourgeois” clothing, and slaughtered animals associated with the old, imperial regime. Suspected class enemies were publicly humiliated, beaten, and even killed.

“I saw so many people die because of the Cultural Revolution. People died right in front of me,” says Hongtu Zhang, an artist who lived through the Cultural Revolution. “I saw students following Mao’s ideas pile Chinese and Western books into a big hill and just burn it. It was not a Cultural Revolution, it was a culture being destroyed.”

Bonded only by their shared loyalty to Mao, the Red Guards quickly splintered into feuding factions and plunged the country into anarchic violence. After two years of bloodshed, Mao decided to restore order and reign in the rabid Red Guards.

On July 27, 1968, Mao ordered 30,000 factory workers to occupy Qinghua University in Beijing, which had devolved into a battleground between two student militias. Although the workers outnumbered the 400 or so students, they were grossly unprepared. Armed only with pictures of Mao, the workers faced a barrage of bricks, spears, sulfuric acid, and homemade bombs. They suffered casualties and sustained hundreds of serious injuries. But, with the assistance of the People’s Liberation Army, they prevailed.

As a token of his gratitude, Mao sent the workers stationed at Qinghua a case of mangoes, which he’d received from Pakistan’s foreign minister. The gift was accompanied by a message that declared the workers were now in charge of the revolution.

“Mao didn’t often give presents, so it was seen as a powerful gesture in support of the workers,” explains Dr. Alfreda Murck, a Chinese art historian and co-curator of the Mao’s Golden Mangoes and the Cultural Revolution exhibition at The Museum Rietberg.

“Few [people] had even heard the word [‘mango’], let alone seen one,” recalled Wang Xiaoping in Mao’s Golden Mango and the Cultural Revolution. “To receive such a rare and exotic thing filled people with a surge of excitement.”

“The workers decided not to eat them. They stayed up through the night looking at the mangoes, stroking them, and sniffing them,” says Murck. “The workers did not have any clue what they were, but because the mangoes were a gift from Mao, they were in awe of them.”

Over the next few days, military representatives delivered the mangoes to model factories, where workers attempted to preserve the precious fruit. At the Beijing People’s Printing Agency, workers placed their mango in a jar of formaldehyde, which eventually turned black and withered like an oversized raisin. At the Beijing Textile Factory, workers sealed their sacred gift in wax, but after a few days, it began to rot. In response, they carefully peeled the mango and boiled its pulpy flesh in a large pot of water. Afterwards, the factory held a Eucharist-like service where everyone drank a spoonful of the precious elixir.

China has a rich repertoire of food symbols, which lent the mangoes additional layers of meaning and significance. The foreign fruit was compared to the Mushrooms of Immortality and the Longevity Peach from Chinese mythology. Thus, Mao’s gift was interpreted as an act of selflessness, in which he sacrificed his own longevity for the workers.

Workers weren’t the only ones with mango madness. The fruit garnered widespread enthusiasm, much of which was based on the belief that the chaos of the Cultural Revolution had finally come to an end.

“There was this perception that Mao had stepped in to end the specific violence between the Red Guard factions on the Qinghua campus and the general violence of the Cultural Revolution,” says Murck.

In reality, Mao’s motives were far less noble. “Mao didn’t like fruit and didn’t want to eat these messy mangoes,” says Murck. “It was totally unexpected that they would be greeted with such awe and enthusiasm. It was a gift to the propaganda department.”

Indeed, the Party quickly adopted the fruit as a symbol of the transition of power from the Red Guards to the working class. Mango imagery was plastered on propaganda posters, often accompanied by the new slogan “the working class must lead in all things.” Gigantic papier-mâché mangoes decorated floats at the National Day Parade and wax replicas enshrined in glass vitrines were distributed as merit awards. Facsimiles were also publicly exhibited across China. No expense was spared in the mangoes’ grand tour: They traveled by private planes, special trains, and a fleet of custom “mango trucks.”

While the mango inspired genuine joy, there was a coercive undercurrent to the mass displays. Attendance at the mango exhibitions, parades, and celebrations was often mandatory. In the middle of the winter, oilfield workers in Daqing were forced into unheated buses in negative-22 degrees Fahrenheit and taken to a local mango exhibition.

“I don’t know how many people worshipped the mango from their heart,” says Zhang. “It was a simple way for people to show loyalty to Chairman Mao and protect themselves. If you didn’t pretend, you wouldn’t just be criticized by other people, you would die.”

The consequences of disrespect were dire. According to Wang, one of her colleagues was “admonished by senior workers for not holding the fruit securely, which was a sign of disrespect to the Great Leader.” In a 2007 essay, Murck recounts a fatal episode in Sichuan Province, where a man was dragged through the streets and executed for comparing mangoes with sweet potatoes.

A year and a half later, China’s mango fever broke. Once the anti-Red Guard policy was firmly in place, the mango disappeared from official propaganda. The mango replicas, devoid of their sacrosanct status, were used to wax thread and burned for light during power outages.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:08 am

There's the problem. Right there. People always refer to specific episode of the past, as well as generic orientalist, racial ideas about the Chinese, without any kind of genuine understanding of how China has developed and how things work there today.

Racism and orientalism together with jealousy and envy (and maybes sometimes mixed up with fear) could very well sum up most very most of ideas the West make up about China and the Chinese.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:29 am

Franklin wrote:
Trick wrote:
Yes I admire it too, especially the cool and true posters they used to make back in the days, they’re far more admirably in not only coolness but of course also in trueness over the US ones that lack big in trueness..... :)



speaking of back in the day -- maybe a return to these awesome values and logic are the way to go...

not sure you can access this website from where you live -- maybe it has been censored..
but it is a fun read - will post the text below - but you miss the awesome old school pictures and posters you love


.

I have to do a boring Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart, prove I’m no bot for that link, looks they want to censor me. 8-)
So about fruits - in China “worship” of delicious fruits hold a long history, goes way back, peaches, apples, grapes, and howabout oranges, in Swedish an orange is called apelsin which mean translated to English- Apple from China or Chinese Apple .
To add the delicious mango to the fruit basket seem quite right...a mango tip, if you want your chunk of beef super tender let it soak/marinade in mango juice before cooking. Drinking a glass of mango juice with your steak dish help to digest the tough beef if you forgot or didn’t have time to marinade it. Pineapples works fine too.....
An Apple a day.......
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:02 am

Bao wrote:There's the problem. Right there. People always refer to specific episode of the past, as well as generic orientalist, racial ideas about the Chinese, without any kind of genuine understanding of how China has developed and how things work there today.

Racism and orientalism together with jealousy and envy (and maybes sometimes mixed up with fear) could very well sum up most very most of ideas the West make up about China and the Chinese.




again you miss the point and then want to say that others don't comprehend....

so let me break it down



Trick wrote:
Bill wrote:
I’m absolutely with Bao on this. If there would happen an mainland China attack on the province of Taiwan, it most certainly will be an USA attack disguised as an Chinese....some sort of Boston tea party disguise...

One truly has to admire the genius of Chinese propaganda!!

Yes I admire it too, especially the cool and true posters they used to make back in the days, they’re far more admirably in not only coolness but of course also in trueness over the US ones that lack big in trueness..... :)




so I posted something about how nice it was
back in the days


Trick is the one who said he liked that sort of thing....


also of course things are different now
china has massive influence and reach now all over the world
things are much more sophisticated
china has capitol and resources and can trade on people's greed
and the propaganda is even spread from without the country
Last edited by Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:10 am

Trick wrote:I have to do a boring Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart, prove I’m no bot for that link, looks they want to censor me. 8-)
So about fruits - in China “worship” of delicious fruits hold a long history, goes way back, peaches, apples, grapes, and howabout oranges, in Swedish an orange is called apelsin which mean translated to English- Apple from China or Chinese Apple .
To add the delicious mango to the fruit basket seem quite right...a mango tip, if you want your chunk of beef super tender let it soak/marinade in mango juice before cooking. Drinking a glass of mango juice with your steak dish help to digest the tough beef if you forgot or didn’t have time to marinade it. Pineapples works fine too.....
An Apple a day.......



as all you seem to have gotten from the article is that fruit is tasty..

maybe read it again --

or on the other hand maybe Bill is right - and the Chinese Propaganda is to good.. at the no can defend level...




anyways -- I think both Bao and Trick know the propaganda and know the point I was making..
cause if you notice- they used good propaganda tactics and deflected
and created a new narrative...

now the only question is are Bao and Trick at the level of the chinese propaganda, or do they need to study more....????
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