Will There Be War?

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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:12 am

and speaking of chinese propaganda:



https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4037322


China’s information warfare against Taiwan as harmful as military attack: Experts
Beijing works with local Taiwanese collaborators to infiltrate smaller, closed communities

By Huang Tzu-ti, Taiwan News, Staff Writer
2020/10/25 11:25


TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — China has been conducting information warfare against smaller populations in Taiwan that experts warn poses a threat no less potent than military attacks.

According to a report released on Saturday (Oct. 24) by Doublethink Lab, a non-profit organization in Taiwan, China has adopted various tactics to promote narratives favoring the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Beijing previously focused on distributing disinformation on content farms and making YouTube videos containing false claims but has now begun working with local collaborators to target small communities in “precision attacks.”

This information warfare has been conducted in cooperation with borough chiefs and influencers such as online program hosts, who are employed to advance Beijing’s agenda, said Shen Pao-yang (沈伯洋), assistant professor at the National Taipei University’s Graduate School of Criminology. Such activities are harder to detect as the targeted groups are often private, thus making it more challenging to counteract Chinese influence, wrote CNA.

Communities claiming to hold a neutral political position, rather than those with stronger leanings, are believed to be most vulnerable to such infiltration, the study found. Gaming platforms have also become an increasingly important battlespace for such campaigns in addition to social media, said Ethan Tu (杜奕瑾), founder of Taiwan AI Labs, a private research organization based in Taipei.

Compared with its efforts in Russia and the U.S., China’s operations in Taiwan appear to be less organized and decentralized, Shen observed. He attributed the difference of approaches to the competitive nature of China’s complex apparatus, with respective unification promotion activities carried out in independent projects rather than pushed under a broader strategy, wrote Deutsche Welle.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:22 am

more about the Chinese propaganda and information warfare

during the beginning and height of the pandemic... not only did china use influence and international pressure keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources..

but they even targeted taiwan's ability to effectively fight the virus by trying to spread disinformation and panic within taiwan -

my favorite one one was this

One outrageous post, which misuses the famous image of the Tiananmen Square "Tank Man," invented a fantastical scene in Taichung in which the government is sending troops to suppress an apparently disease-related protest.

Based on IP address data, police found that the image was, unsurprisingly, the work of Chinese Internet trolls.

The "Tank Man" image refers to an unidentified Chinese man who stood in front of a column of tanks at Tiananmen Square on June 5, 1989, when the Chinese military violently suppressed student protesters and workers, and the photo's misuse reveals a spectacular ignorance of historical events in the communist country — events which are familiar to the rest of the world.


https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3884547


hahahahahaha
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:33 am

Again, as hard you have to believe it this, but I don't listen to propaganda, neither from the West or from China.

Franklin wrote:and speaking of chinese propaganda:

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4037322

China’s information warfare against Taiwan as harmful as military attack: Experts
Beijing works with local Taiwanese collaborators to infiltrate smaller, closed communities

By Huang Tzu-ti, Taiwan News, Staff Writer
2020/10/25 11:25

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — China has been conducting information warfare against smaller populations in Taiwan that experts warn poses a threat no less potent than military attacks.



Interesting. Should be about true. Similar to how the US try to infiltrate in Mainland China, HK and Taiwan to spread lies and rumours about China. This is why China sent away a whole bunch of US state financed "missionaries". So I guess they use the same tactics.

There's so many strange things coming from Taiwanese media about Mainland China that I am not surprised that they would do like this. However, there are a couple of political TV-shows in Taiwan that are very neutral, fair to all parties and dig deep, so I am not going to say that all Taiwanese have a misconception. But still, the general conception abut the Mainland is often pretty weird. I am not sure that even a good proportion of pro-Mainland propaganda could even neutralise the US-Taiwanese anti-Mainland propaganda.

"...information warfare against smaller populations in Taiwan that experts warn poses a threat no less potent than military attacks."

If you believe the sincerity of this statement, then you might understand what all massive anti-Mainland propaganda does against China? :P
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:41 am

Franklin wrote:more about the Chinese propaganda and information warfare

during the beginning and height of the pandemic... not only did china use influence and international pressure keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources..



It says absolutely nothing about "keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources". That is something you made ups. And I cannot really understand why. Taiwan put a lot of pressure on the Mainland right from just ghearing rumours before it went public in the end of dec. And they succeeded to get important information first of everyone. They acted quicker and better than any one in any other place in the whole world, including the Mainland.


"Taiwan's authorities on Tuesday (March 3) accused Chinese Internet trolls of spreading misinformation about the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) and prosecuted a Taiwanese national for reposting the misinformation in an online forum."


Doesn't Taiwanese know about 1989? Strange. The Mainlanders does, very much so, though I guess most of them believe that the Students were the assailants.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:53 am

Bao wrote:Again, as hard you have to believe it this, but I don't listen to propaganda, neither from the West or from China.


so how does this work,
do you determine something is propaganda, then then stop listening/reading
and then forget what you read/listened too

and if you "don't listen to propaganda" - its funny that you think you are so well informed as to what the propaganda is and who is using and for what purpose...
or maybe you just take what someone is telling you about it as fact?


Bao wrote:Similar to how the US try to infiltrate in Mainland China, HK and Taiwan to spread lies and rumours about China. This is why China sent away a whole bunch of US state financed "missionaries". So I guess they use the same tactics...
There's so many strange things coming from Taiwanese media about Mainland China.... However, there are a couple of political TV-shows in Taiwan that are very neutral, fair to all parties and dig deep, so I am not going to say that all Taiwanese have a misconception. But still, the general conception abut the Mainland is often pretty weird. I am not sure that even a good proportion of pro-Mainland propaganda could even neutralise the US-Taiwanese anti-Mainland propaganda


so i am confused - are you familiar with the propaganda you speak of here?
or are you getting your source on this from commentary on the propaganda?
how exactly do you inform yourself... if you don't listen to propaganda...


anyways -- your use of the term "Mainland" and "pro-Mainland" is propaganda...
even with the mainland capitalized... (heavy propaganda there)

so it is also funny that you don't listen to it... but you produce it...


hahahahaha
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:10 am

Bao wrote:
Franklin wrote:more about the Chinese propaganda and information warfare

during the beginning and height of the pandemic... not only did china use influence and international pressure keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources..



It says absolutely nothing about "keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources". That is something you made ups. And I cannot really understand why. Taiwan put a lot of pressure on the Mainland right from just ghearing rumours before it went public in the end of dec. And they succeeded to get important information first of everyone. They acted quicker and better than any one in any other place in the whole world, including the Mainland.




yeah-- the article said nothing about that
that was my comment before introducing the article

what i wrote was-
more about the Chinese propaganda and information warfare

during the beginning and height of the pandemic... not only did china use influence and international pressure keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources..

but they even targeted taiwan's ability to effectively fight the virus by trying to spread disinformation and panic within taiwan -

my favorite one one was this



let me break that down for you:

i wrote:
"during the beginning and height of the pandemic... not only did china use influence and international pressure...
but they even targeted taiwan's ability to effectively fight the virus by trying to spread disinformation and panic within taiwan -"


that is

not only.... did they do this...
but they also did this
and then introduce the article...

to highlight that not only did they do whats in the article-
but they also did other things as well

2 separate things




and lets go over this- you wrote:
It says absolutely nothing about "keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources". That is something you made ups. And I cannot really understand why. Taiwan put a lot of pressure on the Mainland right from just ghearing rumours before it went public in the end of dec. And they succeeded to get important information first of everyone. They acted quicker and better than any one in any other place in the whole world, including the Mainland.


point by point:
It says absolutely nothing about "keep taiwan from getting medical information from the WHO and international sources".

of course the article did not
see my point above about english language
not only did they do this... but they also did this... and introduce the article
2 separate but related points
not 2 things that were in the article


That is something you made ups. And I cannot really understand why.

false statement-- i did not make anything up..
its fact
china pressured and pressures (present tense) international organizations and WHO to designate taiwan as a province of china
and that china would disseminate the international information to all it's provinces...

so instead of allowing taiwan to effectively handle the panademic- they tried to cut them off from international information
(and that is in addition to the fact that they tried running disinformation campaigns inside taiwan to decrease the effectiveness of handling the pandemic and to create panic - which the article gives one example of -- there are literally thousands of this stuff happening this year)

taiwan is not a province of china
when my mail from international sources is forced to say "province of china" by "Chinese pressure - to create the propaganda that taiwan is a part of china
my mail goes to china and either disappears - or after 4 or more months is returned to sender - saying no such address exists.. (having never entered taiwan once..)

if you believe taiwan is a part of china
i would encourage you to visit taiwan and get you travel visa from china
let me know how that goes for you


Taiwan put a lot of pressure on the Mainland right from just ghearing rumours before it went public in the end of dec. And they succeeded to get important information first of everyone. They acted quicker and better than any one in any other place in the whole world, including the Mainland.


yes taiwan did-

that has nothing to do with china interfering with international information getting to taiwan

and your use of "Mainland" is in itself propaganda...

so if you don't listen t propaganda- don't spread it...
Last edited by Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:12 am

Franklin wrote:
Taiwan put a lot of pressure on the Mainland right from just ghearing rumours before it went public in the end of dec. And they succeeded to get important information first of everyone. They acted quicker and better than any one in any other place in the whole world, including the Mainland.


yes taiwan did-

that has nothing to do with china interfering with international information getting to taiwan


I have no idea about the what sources you base this notion on interference, but in this case it’s not important to ask about. However, Taiwan has “no right to its own diplomatic representation on the global stage and in international organizations” because Taiwan has no own representation in the UN. Internationally, it’s not regarded as its own country. So what China does or does not is not of any importance. Taiwan has no right to ask for first hand information even if Mainland China would allow it. China can neither interfere nor allow anything.

Still, I don’t understand why you believe that Taiwan would have anything to gain on listening to the WHO when the information came right from the source. They had nothing to gain to wait on WHO’s slow information and contradicting statements. Taiwan acted much faster than any other country and had all information they needed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/15/how-tai ... virus.html

and your use of "Mainland" is in itself propaganda...

so if you don't listen t propaganda- don't spread it...


I am using "Mainland China" as opposed to Taiwan. It's not me who claim that the Mainland and Taiwan is one country. This is stated in the constitution of Taiwan. There it is said that Taiwan and the Mainland is one Country and that the Taiwan government is the real government. So it's really Taiwan who believe that the Mainland is a part of Taiwan. However, internationally, The Mainland is considered to represent Taiwan as Taiwan has no mandate in the UN. So Taiwan is not really regarded as an independent country. Personally, I believe that they should receive that recognition. But otoh, it would be peculiar if Taiwan would accept something that goes against its own constitution. So do they really want that recognition? (The US does not want this, because then they could not use Taiwan as efficiently against China. And then, Taiwan would soon be left alone, abandoned and forgotten by the US.) What I believe though is not really important, but you can’t really turn back the clock, and the Mainland has no real gain by trying to infuse Taiwan under its rule. But both Taiwan and the US seems to think that Taiwan is more important than it is. Of course, the US regard China as a threat and wants to convince everyone that it is, so it can continue to stir the pot and create problems for both parties. Divide et impera.

What is peculiar though, imo, is the Taiwanese animosity towards mainland Chinese people. They on the other hand do not look down on Taiwanese.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:11 am

Franklin wrote:
Trick wrote:I have to do a boring Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart, prove I’m no bot for that link, looks they want to censor me. 8-)
So about fruits - in China “worship” of delicious fruits hold a long history, goes way back, peaches, apples, grapes, and howabout oranges, in Swedish an orange is called apelsin which mean translated to English- Apple from China or Chinese Apple .
To add the delicious mango to the fruit basket seem quite right...a mango tip, if you want your chunk of beef super tender let it soak/marinade in mango juice before cooking. Drinking a glass of mango juice with your steak dish help to digest the tough beef if you forgot or didn’t have time to marinade it. Pineapples works fine too.....
An Apple a day.......



as all you seem to have gotten from the article is that fruit is tasty..

maybe read it again --

or on the other hand maybe Bill is right - and the Chinese Propaganda is to good.. at the no can defend level...




anyways -- I think both Bao and Trick know the propaganda and know the point I was making..
cause if you notice- they used good propaganda tactics and deflected
and created a new narrative...

now the only question is are Bao and Trick at the level of the chinese propaganda, or do they need to study more....????

i read the story you copied into your post. i think Bao's reply was quite accurate, that Murk guy is into some murky writing bordering to racist stereotyping.........Yes the cultural revolution was not a good episode, lots of young renegading youths feeling powerfull going insane..as the story about the university in beijing incident in the article......later years when china opened up foreign powers(US) has sneakingly every now and then try to fire up "students" revolts..HK the latest example........Studying more ! oh no putting me at risk of becoming an violent naive student, no not me... 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:21 am

first UN is an organization made up of countries
i did not know they were the ratifying world authority on a countries existence...
so countries did not exist before the UN?

coun·try
/ˈkəntrē/

1.
a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.
"the country's increasingly precarious economic position"


no mention of UN...

again
this really draws back to my point of China influencing international organizations
and the propaganda that they spew out... or their proxies spew out...



ok- and then you want to bring up the constitution of taiwan

also if you claim taiwan is not a country
then how does it have a constitution which you view as valid...


make up your mind...



as on the use of the term mainland...
as you claim to be up to date...
maybe you should actually try to be up to date...
Last edited by Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:42 am

Bao wrote:
Still, I don’t understand why you believe that Taiwan would have anything to gain on listening to the WHO when the information came right from the source. They had nothing to gain to wait on WHO’s slow information and contradicting statements. Taiwan acted much faster than any other country and had all information they needed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/15/how-tai ... virus.html




so you don't think being able to interface and connect with other countries around the world during a pandemic
would have been beneficial for either taiwan or beneficial for the other countries around the world
instead of having to use back door channels??

interesting stance to take
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:08 am

Franklin wrote:
ok- and then you want to bring up the constitution of taiwan

also if you claim taiwan is not a country
then how does it have a constitution which you view as valid...

make up your mind...

as on the use of the term mainland...
as you claim to be up to date...
maybe you should actually try to be up to date...


Either you don't read very well or maybe you enjoy the discussion so much that you want to make sure we continue? I don't know, but if there's one thing I am not particularly fond about, and something I often regard as an insult, is when someone out words in my mouth that

However, if you would in fact bother to read correctly, I have never said that that Taiwan is not a Country. Moreover, I expressed my thought that it should become acknowledged in the UN. Today Taiwan is still regarded as a part of China internationally. And the Taiwanese Constitution is not accepted by the UN. Taiwan according to its own Constitution regards China as one county that includes Taiwan. If you want to argue about the logic here, leave me out of it and ask the Taiwanese government how they are thinking. I didn't write their constitution.

Some recent discuss in Taiwanese media about the need to change their Constitution and problems with their present.

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan ... 2003744216


Franklin wrote:
Bao wrote:
Still, I don’t understand why you believe that Taiwan would have anything to gain on listening to the WHO when the information came right from the source. They had nothing to gain to wait on WHO’s slow information and contradicting statements. Taiwan acted much faster than any other country and had all information they needed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/15/how-tai ... virus.html




so you don't think being able to interface and connect with other countries around the world during a pandemic
would have been beneficial for either taiwan or beneficial for the other countries around the world
instead of having to use back door channels??

interesting stance to take


Are you retarded or what? You should really learn to read better as I didn't say anything of what you stated in your weird conclusion. I merely stated facts. My question was about why you believe that, in this case we speak about here, waiting for WHO would be better than getting information directly from the source.

Btw, why don't you bring that up with the UN?
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:48 am

Bao wrote:Are you retarded or what?


lol
i wonder the same thing about you




as to your use of "Mainland" and "Mainland China" (with capitalization lol)
you know the way it is used in the world today -- the PRC meaning is the one implied - because of the the power of China in the UN...
as you so elegantly put it:

Bao wrote:Taiwan has “no right to its own diplomatic representation on the global stage and in international organizations” because Taiwan has no own representation in the UN. Internationally, it’s not regarded as its own country. So what China does or does not is not of any importance. Taiwan has no right to ask for first hand information even if Mainland China would allow it. China can neither interfere nor allow anything.



for you to claim- that you know the ROC meaning and then seem to imply- its the ROC meaning you are going with?


Bao wrote:I am using "Mainland China" as opposed to Taiwan. It's not me who claim that the Mainland and Taiwan is one country. This is stated in the constitution of Taiwan. There it is said that Taiwan and the Mainland is one Country and that the Taiwan government is the real government. So it's really Taiwan who believe that the Mainland is a part of Taiwan.


so this makes it seem like you are using it because ROC (taiwan) uses it right?

but then you sneak this in:

Bao wrote:However, internationally, The Mainland is considered to represent Taiwan as Taiwan has no mandate in the UN. So Taiwan is not really regarded as an independent country.



but then you flip back again - and then flip again at the end there.. just to be safe:

Bao wrote:Personally, I believe that they should receive that recognition. But otoh, it would be peculiar if Taiwan would accept something that goes against its own constitution.



but really

you could just use China and Taiwan

using mainland when you are so well informed on the issues is pure BS Propaganda

and to explain it the way you did would just confuse most people....

and here you go again:

Bao wrote:However, if you would in fact bother to read correctly, I have never said that that Taiwan is not a Country. Moreover, I expressed my thought that it should become acknowledged in the UN. Today Taiwan is still regarded as a part of China internationally. And the Taiwanese Constitution is not accepted by the UN. Taiwan according to its own Constitution regards China as one county that includes Taiwan. If you want to argue about the logic here, leave me out of it and ask the Taiwanese government how they are thinking. I didn't write their constitution.


and the bolded part above is basically why you using the term "mainland" is propaganda...
and you know that
even though you don't listen to propaganda...

you could just use taiwan and china

but you don't
Last edited by Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:28 am

Franklin wrote:[
Bao wrote:However, if you would in fact bother to read correctly, I have never said that that Taiwan is not a Country. Moreover, I expressed my thought that it should become acknowledged in the UN. Today Taiwan is still regarded as a part of China internationally. And the Taiwanese Constitution is not accepted by the UN. Taiwan according to its own Constitution regards China as one county that includes Taiwan. If you want to argue about the logic here, leave me out of it and ask the Taiwanese government how they are thinking. I didn't write their constitution.


and the bolded part above is basically why you using the term "mainland" is propaganda...


The bolded part has nothing to do with propaganda. I am merely stating facts. If you believe it's wrong, you can always dispute it with contradicting facts. Pleonastic drivel doesn't.

And frankly, I don't care how you believe that the names "China" and "Taiwan" should be used in sentences.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Franklin on Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:10 pm

Bao wrote:
Franklin wrote:[
Bao wrote: [b]Today Taiwan is still regarded as a part of China internationally.[/b


and the bolded part above is basically why you using the term "mainland" is propaganda...


The bolded part has nothing to do with propaganda. I am merely stating facts. If you believe it's wrong, you can always dispute it with contradicting facts. Pleonastic drivel doesn't.

And frankly, I don't care how you believe that the names "China" and "Taiwan" should be used in sentences.



all right - here you go
lets see if you can follow...

when you claim to know the history of the term mainland from both the PRC and the ROC perspective

and you state that
Today Taiwan is still regarded as a part of China internationally.


and you choose to use the term - mainland china...

you are perpetuating propaganda

namely - the PRC China propaganda -- that is further supported by the CCP influence in international organizations - which establishes the manufactured international status quo
which china then uses as support for their stance on the matter


you know this and do so willing
as demonstrated by your knowledge of the whole situation... as you outlined for us..

so you may not listen to propganda
but you don't seem to have a problem writing it...

just saying....


now we are both not currently in China -- so are free to conduct ourselves however....
you can keep doing this...

but if its BS
I will say so....
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Re: Will There Be War?

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:31 am

I’m the one saying(together with millions and millions of chinese) that Taiwan is an province of China, it can’t change no matter how much the USA want it as their foreign territory or maybe they even aim to add another state to its USA ?
Last edited by Trick on Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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