China Undercover - Xinjiang

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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:24 am

China used to deny these places existed.

Maybe Bao just doesn't like Muslims?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRS5cdcsUOc
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:31 pm

Steve James wrote:Hey Bao, what do you personally think happens at a re-education camp in China, generally? Do you think re-education is necessary? would you call these places re-education camps of something else?

Granted that calling them work camps or concentration camps might be an exaggeration, if they exist, do you think they are a good thing?


Hi Steve, I think that I have explained my view a few times.

Of course education camps exist. China has never denied it. Do I believe in concentration camps or ethnically based genocide? Absolutely not. Do I believe that they hunt terrorists? Of course they do, they have never denied that. Do I believe that people are thrown in jail just because they are Uighur? No. Do I believe that you can find people in those camps from small, distant rural areas, who never had the opportunity to go or finish school and maybe even can read or write very well. Yes. Do I believe that one million Uighurs are put there against their will? No.

"would you call these places re-education camps of something else?"

There are probably various degrees of re-education. I don't doubt that they try to discover radical islamists and deal with them in various ways. Every country have their own fight against terrorists. Yet, there are schools in many different places in China where people from small areas have a chance to re-educate them, or get a new education. It's not only in Xinjiang. There are also Han Chinese in rural areas that get this opportunity. They might be farmers or workers in places where there are no work left, so they need to add things to their skills. China is rapidly opened up and modernised. Extreme poverty is almost gone in China and people need to be relocated. So they need education and skills. Trying to teach them a nationalistic thinking might be on the table or a standard ingredient even if the school is more about learning than re-education. But this is what the government is trying to do with all Chinese. There's a massive Chinese nationalistic propaganda in Chinese media. But how is it different from what you find in many countries in the West?

You know, I have already mentioned that I know several Chinese Muslims in China, even Uighurs. They are successful and do well in society. If someone would suggest that they would laugh. So knowing what I have said in the past, for someone as Graham to say that I don’t like Muslims is not only a very juvenile kind of provocation, but it also show how the China haters are completely unreceptive for things that goes against their extremist beliefs. When you come with information or facts, sometimes that are very easy to look up and verify, they won't even notice that they exist. In general, they have no idea what is going on in China right now, they have no clue who Xi Jinping is or how minorities live in China. And obviously they couldn't care less.

I would like to suggest to someone who has that extreme negative view on China should look around, speak with Chinese people, read a bit general facts about its history and culture, to get know how things generally works in China, and get to understand the relationships between the many different minorities. But obviously, just by looking at a place as the RSF, the China haters don't like to discuss in a mature and sensible manner or read anything that goes against their preconceived ideas. I believe it's sad that people rather attack because they are just not mature enough to have a civilised conversation.

Yet, the way the West keeps on bullying China, try to press it down by stirring up conflicts, and build up mistrust here in the West, is understandable. Lies and lies. The bigger the lies, the easier people believe in them. Something even Trump understand and use on an every day basis.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:27 pm

Thanks for the explanation. The issue I see is the difference between "education" and "re-education." I have to agree that the Chinese people have been doing better economically. That's not really an argument for re-education, though improving educational opportunities everywhere doesn't seem to require camps for specific minority groups.

Imo, what many people question is using terrorism as a reason for re-education. It just sounds like a euphemism for something more sinister. Of course, "work camp" would sound the same. And, the main reason is that people are being forced to be re-educated and/or work.

From where I sit, it's easy for me to be skeptical about genocide or ethnic cleansing. Too easy, in fact. However, that doesn't mean I'm anti-Chinese, anti-communist, or pro-terrorist. Yes. Countries do various things to combat terrorism. Sometimes they're right, and sometime they're not so right. For the record, I don't like the sound or look of "re-education" camps, no matter the reason.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Steve James wrote:, though improving educational opportunities everywhere doesn't seem to require camps for specific minority groups.


But there are not only Uighurs in those camps in Xinjiang, there are people from various groups. What they have in common is that they come from small, distant rural areas. The minority group is not the common factor. So it’s not pointed only towards Uighurs, or even at Muslims. There are similar schools in other parts of China where there are no Muslim minorities.

For the record, I don't like the sound or look of "re-education" camps, no matter the reason.


Fair comment. Yeah, ‘re-education’ doesn’t sound very good.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:27 pm

"Vocational Education and Training Centers" according to the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Government and its CCP Committee
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby GrahamB on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:28 am

I suppose this is just a figment of their imagination too:

Bökh wrestling, and the cultural genocide in Inner Mongolia
Bökh wrestlers open up to Bloody Elbow, saying the People’s Republic of China is trying to erase their culture and violate their rights.
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2020/11/17/ ... r-mongolia

FromFrom the 1970s up to today, the People’s Republic of China has had a meteoric resurgence back to global prominence, establishing itself to be firmly part of what many believe to be this new era of world superpowers. The country is breaking free from their Century of Humiliation and back to a historical norm of the Middle Kingdom’s global economic dominance.

Although China’s return to prominence has not been without setbacks. As the eyes of the world become more fixated on the People’s Republic, China has met increasing and continuing justified criticisms for human rights violations, regional aggression, cybercrimes, and general practices that do not fit with modern morality.

Currently, as the global community increases pressure on China for its treatment of the Muslim minority Uyghurs in their Northwest region and the PRC’s clampdown on democratically fueled protests in Hong Kong, China has continued to expand its reach despite rising scrutiny.

The most recent addition to this growing list concerns the PRC’s seeming campaign to violate cultural rights, legal treaties, and history itself within their autonomous region of Inner Mongolia......
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby GrahamB on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:33 am

"“an estimated 8,000-10,000 [ethnic] Mongolians have been placed under some form of police custody since late August,” says the New York-based Southern Mongolia Human Rights Information Center (SMHRIC) in a statement, which has included elderly people, pregnant women, and middle school students. Police have even entered Mongolian homes and gone as far as “making them sign pledges to not speak against the bilingual program anymore,” says the Los Angeles Times as fears of cultural genocide spread across Inner Mongolia."
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby GrahamB on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:43 am

"for someone as Graham to say that I don’t like Muslims is not only a very juvenile kind of provocation,"


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This one always makes me smile:

Image
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Franklin on Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:11 am

Bao wrote:
There are probably various degrees of re-education. I don't doubt that they try to discover radical islamists and deal with them in various ways. Every country have their own fight against terrorists. Yet, there are schools in many different places in China where people from small areas have a chance to re-educate them, or get a new education. It's not only in Xinjiang. There are also Han Chinese in rural areas that get this opportunity. They might be farmers or workers in places where there are no work left, so they need to add things to their skills. China is rapidly opened up and modernised. Extreme poverty is almost gone in China and people need to be relocated. So they need education and skills. Trying to teach them a nationalistic thinking might be on the table or a standard ingredient even if the school is more about learning than re-education. But this is what the government is trying to do with all Chinese. There's a massive Chinese nationalistic propaganda in Chinese media. But how is it different from what you find in many countries in the West?

You know, I have already mentioned that I know several Chinese Muslims in China, even Uighurs. They are successful and do well in society. If someone would suggest that they would laugh. So knowing what I have said in the past, for someone as Graham to say that I don’t like Muslims is not only a very juvenile kind of provocation, but it also show how the China haters are completely unreceptive for things that goes against their extremist beliefs. When you come with information or facts, sometimes that are very easy to look up and verify, they won't even notice that they exist. In general, they have no idea what is going on in China right now, they have no clue who Xi Jinping is or how minorities live in China. And obviously they couldn't care less.




Bao

seems like you are really informed about what is happening over there...

i would be curious to hear about your Uighur friends' first-hand experience in the re-education camps...

i think that would lend a lot of authority to your position on the matter....
and it would be very informative at the least


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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby chud on Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:44 pm

Bao wrote:
But there are not only Uighurs in those camps in Xinjiang, there are people from various groups. What they have in common is that they come from small, distant rural areas. The minority group is not the common factor. So it’s not pointed only towards Uighurs, or even at Muslims. There are similar schools in other parts of China where there are no Muslim minorities.



Another common factor is that many of the people in these camps are there against their own will, and often their families don't hear from them again.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:09 am

chud wrote:Another common factor is that many of the people in these camps are there against their own will, and often their families don't hear from them again.


So far I have seen no reliable proofs of people disappearing. I know about terrorists being executed, but not people just disappearing. If they find terrorists, they don't want them to disappear, they want to use them to make examples and statements.

Watch the BBC doc. There they all go home to their families every weekend. They also made several interviews in secrecy, but could not confirm any disappearances, torture or any major stuff from the general rumours.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Steve James on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:06 am

The overall "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle. But, that could also mean that there are examples at both extremes. Iow., some non-militant people (Muslim or otherwise) who were not terrorists have been executed, if not disappeared. And, otoh, some or most people at vocational camps are well treated, go home regularly, and appreciate the opportunity.

In the latter case, one question might be whether the returnees are allowed to remain Muslims. They aren't newcomers to China, after all. So, are claims of cultural eradication partially or wholly true? Is it like what was done to Aboriginal people in Australia or Indians here?
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:27 am

Steve James wrote:The overall "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle.



China probably don't say everything that is going on. And also, things are often more complicated and different than how they are perceived in any media, in the West or in China. Still, if you believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle, you need to choose what you want to believe in. About ethnic genocide, there is no in between. You either believe in it or not.


Steve James wrote:In the latter case, one question might be whether the returnees are allowed to remain Muslims. They aren't newcomers to China, after all. So, are claims of cultural eradication partially or wholly true? Is it like what was done to Aboriginal people in Australia or Indians here?


Of course they can. Islam is not forbidden. They hunt Islamic extremists. They know the difference between extremism, terrorism and religion. There are Muslim groups and minorities everywhere in China. They study their own culture, their own language, about Islam and read the Quran. My friends there have children who started studying Islam and the Quran form early kindergarten. Faith, religion and ethnic customs are not forbidden.

Again, there are people in distant, small, rural areas who hardly or never went to school. They need education as China develops. The government is worried about extremism. If people are locked inside small areas without job and without hope about future, then extremism and religious extreme thinking might be nurtured.

Right now, China is at war against poverty and has set this year as the goal too completely get rid of extreme poverty. They are soon there. Companies and authorities together help people with funds and try to build opportunities to help people find work and things that they can earn a living on. Countries in the West cannot accept how rapidly China is developing right now. So of course there must be something bad in every effort, in everything they do. If you try to find a middle truth how ever badly the West try to demonise China, you will always be off track.
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Steve James on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 am

Afa ethnic genocide, that would be the most extreme. I could never say that the PRC are trying to kill off all of a certain people. Since I mentioned a religion, that would be impossible, or almost as possible as making everyone Han Chinese.

That's why I asked about whether they could retain their religion or ethnic identity. It goes back to what "re-education" (not extermination) camps were. I heard your answer about rural peoples needing education to reduce poverty, and I agree. I don't think anyone would complain about that.

Otoh, I don't believe that all instances of re-education are considered positive by the people undergoing the process. I don't believe that all the reports of abuses are made up to make China look bad --specifically by the US. I do believe that anti-Chinese propaganda coming from internal dissidents is more trustworthy in one sense, but is also suspect.

Anyway, back to the genocide aspect. If this were 1940, and someone was telling me about atrocities in Europe, why would I believe him? And, vice versa, why wouldn't I?
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Re: China Undercover - Xinjiang

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:19 am

Steve James wrote:I don't believe that all the reports of abuses are made up to make China look bad --specifically by the US. I do believe that anti-Chinese propaganda coming from internal dissidents is more trustworthy in one sense, but is also suspect.


Fair comment. Still, if someone wants to find what is real in accusations, you need to find things that support the content of those statements.

Anyway, back to the genocide aspect. If this were 1940, and someone was telling me about atrocities in Europe, why would I believe him? And, vice versa, why wouldn't I?


Well, The Nuremburg Laws of 1935 divided German and jews in many ways, as forbidding marriages between Jews and “pure” Germans. The Kristallnacht was 1938. That made it clear exactly what the Germans did. Before 1935, what exactly was happening in Germany was discussed, but few would believe what would come.

As I have mentioned earlier, the Muslims have very strong organisations in China. They also have very strong connections to international organisations. Personally, I believe that if something real horrible thing happened there, we would get all of the proofs we would need from Muslim people within China. It's absurd to believe that everyone would lay low and nothing would leak. If a genocide, or anything similar, were true, we could easily get every proof we needed from Muslim people living in China. There's no other logic to this. With the openness and communication within China today, I found absolutely no reason to believe that horrible things are going on. If I saw something actually come from within the boarders of China, I would be worried. But again, there's nothing.

So whatever you choose to believe, there must be some logic to what you believe. You need to first understand how things work in practice, how things look in real life. After that you can decide whether something would be possible, and what would be possible, or not, within those parameters.
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