Trump supporters commit sedition

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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Strange on Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:16 am

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Last edited by Strange on Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:20 am



So, some of them came to lynch Pence as a traitor. No wonder he didn't try to do what he was asked.
And apparently Blue lives matter as long as they don't get in the way.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:45 am

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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby everything on Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:42 am

It seems there could be a legal issue of - did he actually tell the mob to be violent? We all know he encouraged them and seemed happy about it, but it seems easy to argue he didn't actually say to go violently disrupt the lawful election.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby everything on Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:57 am

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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:54 am

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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Giles on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:19 am

everything wrote:It seems there could be a legal issue of - did he actually tell the mob to be violent? We all know he encouraged them and seemed happy about it, but it seems easy to argue he didn't actually say to go violently disrupt the lawful election.


That will probably be the outcome as far as direct prosecution of this is concerned. Although it would be interesting to hear some qualified legal opinions on this. To me, it seems like a person of authority saying "X is a no-good viper. I seriously wonder how people allow him to continue unharmed. Here's his home address..." And saying it repeatedly. Then when a mob goes to X's house and lynches him, the person of authority can say: "What a tragedy, I didn't like him but I never called for him to be hurt." If he also has good lawyers, then maybe he's home and dry...? :-\
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:20 am

'Hang Mike Pence' trends on Twitter after platform suspends Trump'
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:13 am

Finny wrote:
Bao wrote:
That was a bisarre assertion. Apparently you don't.

Trump didn't like to lose a democratic election. His attack is at least an indirect attack on democracy and on the democratic system of the USA. If he is not puncished, it would mean that you can threat and incite violence against the system without any consequence. What signals would that send to the people?


Can you explain to me who he attacked? What do you expect him to "spend a very long time behind bars" for?


Well, what do we mean by attack? And, does someone need to attack a person to be rightfully imprisoned?

Trump and most of the Republicans have been attacking democracy since before the election results were in. It was Trump and his cronies' constant attacks on our democratic institutions that created the tinder box, and Trump's rally that lit it. It's a completely obvious cause and effect.

As for what Trump could go to prison for? There are many options (although tradition will likely protect him, which is a shame).

Sedition

Tax fraud

Bank and insurance fraud

Campaign finance violations

Bribery

Negligent homicide

https://theintercept.com/2020/10/18/tru ... osecution/
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Finny on Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:21 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
Finny wrote:
Bao wrote:
That was a bisarre assertion. Apparently you don't.

Trump didn't like to lose a democratic election. His attack is at least an indirect attack on democracy and on the democratic system of the USA. If he is not puncished, it would mean that you can threat and incite violence against the system without any consequence. What signals would that send to the people?


Can you explain to me who he attacked? What do you expect him to "spend a very long time behind bars" for?


Well, what do we mean by attack? And, does someone need to attack a person to be rightfully imprisoned?

Trump and most of the Republicans have been attacking democracy since before the election results were in. It was Trump and his cronies' constant attacks on our democratic institutions that created the tinder box, and Trump's rally that lit it. It's a completely obvious cause and effect.

As for what Trump could go to prison for? There are many options (although tradition will likely protect him, which is a shame).

Sedition

Tax fraud

Bank and insurance fraud

Campaign finance violations

Bribery

Negligent homicide

https://theintercept.com/2020/10/18/tru ... osecution/


Exactly. My guess is that Bao (and most others) are meaning that he should be prosecuted for inciting the riot. I highly doubt Bao's a lawyer.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/444/

For multiple reasons, that ain't gonna happen. I was just wondering what Bao thought the connection between that and 'democracy' was. But I get it now. I disagree, but I get where he's coming from.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm

Finny wrote:
For multiple reasons, that ain't gonna happen. I was just wondering what Bao thought the connection between that and 'democracy' was. But I get it now. I disagree, but I get where he's coming from.


Well, I agree with you that it is almost certainly not going to happen. But, I also agree with Bao that it should (if that's what he thinks).

Some sort of consequence would be a good step in backing away from the precipice, in working to ensure this doesn't happen again. Over 70% of Republicans (or FOX NEWS viewers anyway) think that the election was stolen. That's pretty frightening.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:48 pm

Whether he is prosecuted for anything depends primarily on the prosecutor and the statutes at the location. There won't be anything happening in a court before the 20th anyway. However, I think the bigger issue is what happens on the dates already being put forward as opportunities to repeat what happened at the Capitol.

The solution is not a trial, though some sort of trial is inevitable. To at least reduce the possibility of more violence, the president needs to come clean. He needs to tell his supporters that he was wrong and that they should stand down. Twitter was absolutely right for cancelling his account. He keeps saying the same things. The people who'd do this were here long before Trump. Now, it's his responsibility to make sure they don't do anything is his name or on his urging.

Well, it's a Constitutional right to peacefully protest, even while openly armed in some states. Remember when those Antifa thugs planned to kidnap the governor of Michigan? I didn't think you did? Multiply that times fifty. Every state capital has to be secured and hardened. What does that situation sound like?
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Giles on Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:54 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: Over 70% of Republicans (or FOX NEWS viewers anyway) think that the election was stolen. That's pretty frightening.


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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:09 pm

Steve James wrote:Whether he is prosecuted for anything depends primarily on the prosecutor and the statutes at the location. There won't be anything happening in a court before the 20th anyway. However, I think the bigger issue is what happens on the dates already being put forward as opportunities to repeat what happened at the Capitol.

The solution is not a trial, though some sort of trial is inevitable. To at least reduce the possibility of more violence, the president needs to come clean. He needs to tell his supporters that he was wrong and that they should stand down. Twitter was absolutely right for cancelling his account. He keeps saying the same things. The people who'd do this were here long before Trump. Now, it's his responsibility to make sure they don't do anything is his name or on his urging.

Well, it's a Constitutional right to peacefully protest, even while openly armed in some states. Remember when those Antifa thugs planned to kidnap the governor of Michigan? I didn't think you did? Multiply that times fifty. Every state capital has to be secured and hardened. What does that situation sound like?


This post is a bit hard to follow as you seem to be mixing time frames, unrealistic expectations, and apparent sarcasm.

The solution is a trial. That is the long term fix. Sure, there are other things that will need to happen in the short term.

But, do you really think Trump is suddenly going to grow a conscience? Don't hold your breath.

And, things will and are happening in the courts before the 20th. His supporters (what the thread is at least partially about) are being arrested and will have to deal with the courts. That alone will have an effect.

I assume you are being sarcastic about the antifa kidnappers.

Yes, there will likely be more attempts to disrupt the democratic process, but to assume that Trump will do the right thing seems like wishful thinking and what I think the ideal solution would be is as follows:

Crack down on wakadoos.

Impeach (in the House) and convict (in the Senate) to not only remove Trump but, more importantly, bar him from holding office ever again.

Once he is out of office, prosecute him for his myriad crimes and actually make him do some time.

Do not allow the liberal centrist media to rehabilitate all of Trump's sycophants, which they are already doing.

As I already mentioned, I don't want this to turn into an excuse for a bipartisan ramping up of the authoritarian police state. So, while it will be good for police around the country to be ready, it's just as important that they identify officers who will cooperate or give support to terrorists while also giving themselves a long hard look in the mirror to assess why they treated the Trump rioters so much differently than peaceful BLM, Standing Rock, etc...protesters.
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Re: Trump supporters commit sedition

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:24 pm

Yes, Antifa kidnappers was sarcasm. No, a trial will not be a solution or solve anything. Putting him in orange overalls will not solve the problems that existed long before Trump. The difference is that he's given them legitimacy. I don't expect the situation for many people will change one bit. But, I'd be delighted to see him on a perp walk in handcuffs or, better yet, that he tries to flee prosecution and needs to be hunted down. But, I would be naïve to think it will eliminate supremacist thinking or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-intellectualism, or even make people listen to scientists over politicians.

However, my point about Trump apologizing wasn't to suggest he would do it. I was suggesting that the only "solution" to millions of people believing what he's said would be for him to renounce it. Lots of his supporters act because they sincerely think what he's claimed is true. That separates them from the fanatics who use him as their excuse. Nope, I don't think he'll do it. But, I'm not being sarcastic when I say I think it would help.
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