psychedelics as a medicine

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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Steve James on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:39 am

Yes, meeks, I think I can empathize. The brain works funny, and people take most of it for granted until it does. I had a spinal operation and couldn't walk and talk or look around at the same time. It can take a long time to repair. It's humiliating, but success is gratifying.

Anyway, my experience with psychedelics was forty years ago. I don't know anything about therapeutic microdosing. I think it'd have to depend on the actual psychedelic because the effects aren't the same. I suppose your biggest issue would be sourcing. Have you tried cbd?
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Tom on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:55 am

I do not have personal experience with the use of microdoses of psilocybin or other psychedelic agents for therapeutic treatment of brain trauma, but the initial research seems promising with respect to focus/concentration problems, depression, and other long-term chronic damage from concussion or other trauma. Concise overview article:

https://www.biospace.com/article/psychedelics-make-a-comeback-as-therapies-for-brain-injury-ptsd-anxiety-and-even-addiction/

I've had several instances of brain trauma and concussion, and (fortunately) have recovered in my own way, but if the information had been available back during my recoveries I would definitely have checked in the use of microdoses of psychedelics-- as one therapeutic intervention--based on this thread (thanks for the OP and discussion).

It's interesting that some people don't seem to have a problem with deliberate infliction of pain and head-bashing of others in a sporting context, but reflexively (and simplistically) recoil from informed discussion of even the research on therapeutic use of psychedelics. People in the fight business seem to find it promising, though:

https://sports.yahoo.com/dana-white-ufc-microdosing-psychedelics-fighters-brain-injuries-spencer-fisher-060126364.html
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Quigga on Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:34 am

Hey meeks, sorry to see you suffering and I know how hard it can be to open up to a group with polarized viewpoints when one is in a vulnerable position. It shows a lot of maturity and courage, if I may say so ;D

If neurogenesis is what you're after I have a few ideas.

I don't know how much you can read in a sitting, but maybe 'The Talent Code' by Daniel Coyle could help you. Basically it's perfect practice makes perfect but with a lot of added information. 20 minutes of intense concentrated work seems to better than mucking around. The process of building myelin is also highly interesting.

This might be painful, but what about games? Board games ranging from simple to complex, maybe video games, strategy games,... to further practice choice making. Maybe turn based RPGs?

There's also a movement of neurofoods or neurosupplements, most of them experimental the last time I read about them a few years ago. But some seem to be pretty mainstream and commonly used by people interested in the topic. I haven't taken any.

Also I would encourage creativity in whatever way you may want to express it... Music, drawing, wood working, simple crafting, improvisation theatre, whatever. As long as you create something that wasn't there before in that version it's good.

Hit me up if you want to chat, might help with my anxiety :)
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:22 pm

Meeks,

Very sorry to hear about your injuries. It sounds very serious. I wouldn't be surprised if psilocybin had healing potential here given the other benefits that are now being recognized. I'm sorry I can't comment on personal experience. I would caution that there is likely a huge difference between different psychedelics. Also, microdosing is not the only way to use mushrooms as a healing agent (eg: depression and anxiety respond very well to TB,* as does addiction).

I would definitely recommend looking into lion's mane if you haven't already. Not trippy, but good for brain recovery.







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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby edededed on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:45 pm

Hi Meeks - brain injury is tough, good to see that your writing seems unimpaired! I have no experience with psychedelics, but acupuncture seemed to work somewhat personally. One caveat is that treatment for whatever reason needs to be done soon after the injury though - as time goes on it seems less effective.

As for psychedelics, if they cause neural stimulation, which causes neurogenesis, that may work, but of course it is a new therapy and may have some risks. Maybe other methods that cause neural stimulation could work, too, e.g. physical exercise combined with mental work.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:40 pm

. It's interesting that some people don't seem to have a problem with deliberate infliction of pain and head-bashing of others in a sporting context, but reflexively (and simplistically) recoil from informed discussion of even the research on therapeutic use of psychedelics. People in the fight business seem to find it promising, though:
. Might not be long till such drugs finds itself on the WADA list.......

https://www.wholecelium.com/articles/ps ... rformance/


Could it prove to be an alternative skipping eating bitter short cut road for the athlete ?....anyway I’ll bet many western Taiji players back in the hippie days where masterfully playing
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby meeks on Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:33 am

Tom wrote:I've had several instances of brain trauma and concussion, and (fortunately) have recovered in my own way, but if the information had been available back during my recoveries I would definitely have checked in the use of microdoses of psychedelics-- as one therapeutic intervention--based on this thread (thanks for the OP and discussion).


you might want to read up on the effects of concussions and how they increase the risk of dementia exponentially later in life - essentially what the movie Concussion (Will Smith) is about. You may want to revisit the idea of neurogenesis methodologies now vs later, although like I said in an earlier post, they are now starting to investigate the benefits of microdosing on the elderly with various forms of dementia.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Tom on Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:24 am

Neurogenesis is the key to recovery at any age. The research for the elderly with tespect to dementia is promising.

Neurophysiological damage from concussions accumulates over time and do not go away. “Concussion” is an excellent movie about chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and it’s well worth followng up what the movie shows with more current research.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:55 am

meeks wrote:well I suffered a very severe concussion recently (got T-bone by a truck... then 2 more crashes within a year, one on the freeway which almost turned my brain to pudding - concussion on top of a concussion is life threatening - I had 3 high speed collision in a 2 year period) which took me out of being able to work for over 2 years - some of you may have noticed my participation on the board had really dropped off, and I had also deleted all my social media accounts and my martial arts websites as I 'went into hibernation mode'. I had to re-learn how to do my job. 2 years ago at this time I was learning to sweep the floor and I had such a bad speech impediment it would take me 30 seconds to say the word 'toast' to a waitress. I had a food schedule provided for me because I was unable to make decisions.
Monday - 2 pieces of toast with peanut butter... that's your 1 meal of the day
Tuesday - instant oatmeal - that's your 1 meal of the day
Wednesday - 2 boiled eggs... if there's more than 1 pot on the stove always use the 1 on the right.
in between meals I slept the majority of the day (par for the course with a severe concussion)
if there was more that 1 flavor of instant oatmeal... uh-oh... I have to make a choice? Back to bed without eating because the idea of making a decision wiped out my energy reserves... I'll try eating again tomorrow - nothing today. That phase lasted about 3 months at its worst point.

I had to join a brain injury support group and got to know people that had been suffering from severe concussions for years - a severe one can be quite life altering. I also witnessed the changes in a few people who began to microdose (such a small amount that its effects are imperceptible). For 1 woman I could see how her speech changed after the first microdose. Over the weeks I saw her condition improve... someone that had been 'stagnant' in her recovery for a few years. After 6 months she was back to work as a writer. I also witnessed someone who had been on anti-depressants for many years ween themselves off of it gradually for 3 months, then continue to microdose for a year. They have not used it since the first year's completion, neither the antidepressants nor the microdose. The list goes on.

So for anyone that thinks a discussion about microdosing is about 'getting high as balls' it's a shame - I was hoping to have an engaging thread with people interested in learning more. This is not an attack. We stand for what we believe, and we believe based on experience so it's all good. I put this out there hoping that if someone has or knows someone suffering from concussion, abi (acquired brain injury - stroke) or tbi (traumatic brain injury - some external trauma) that they would look into this as an option - it's legal in some states and is a recognized form of therapy.

It causes neurogenesis (formation of new neuropathways) and is an excellent medicine for people suffering some sort of neuropathway loss. I've read that it's also being studied for people with various forms of dementia.

If you go to maps.org website you can find tons of information on studies related to the use of psychedelics as a medicine and in fact they are now in human trials (after years of phase1, phase 2, phase 3 testing and approvals) for being recognized as an effective means for people with severe, chronic ptsd.

edit:
But re microdosing with supervision it may be worth a shot. Your gates may open just a tiny bit which could allow enough exposure to facilitate growth in a positive direction. I've read about successful treatments for PTSD with psilocybin or LSD, both microdosed.

actually you take your dose and go about your day - remember, the quantity has such a low effect it's imperceptible. It's not what you feel it's what you don't feel... as in you don't feel anxiety and a slew of other symptoms. One injury person I knew would microdose and finally be able to sleep because it would calm her mind. The great thing is because it rewires the brain you actually improve with each microdose.

It's funny, because I've had discussions where people have said to me "I microdosed once and I didn't feel a damn thing"... (facepalm)... yea no sh** sherlock... that's the point. :)


I have no experience in this area either, but just wanted to say, damn man, that sucks. But from the length, eloquence and detail of what you're written you seem to have already come a long way. Amazing work.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby meeks on Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:59 pm

Thanks to everyone for the well wishes... yea ... it was a long road. I was quite suicidal - had it all planned out... I was waiting for the day I woke up and said "I'm too tired to continue"... I estimate I had 2 days left on my clock when I began recovery efforts outside of pharmaceutical "here's an ssri, and you'll need to wait til your brain recovers on its own - in the meantime stop letting big trucks pile into your car".
I had to relearn how to do my job, 1 hour every other day and napping the rest of the day and it took months to be able to work a full day, and on top of that learning how to navigate all the mistakes I still made in my job I'd been doing for decades.
my last crash was almost 3 years ago and I can still tell the issues I have but for the most part my speech is mostly recovered and my writing skills are (hopefully) almost fully recovered. I still am working on reading comprehension - I misinterpret a lot still.
At one point, if you said a sentence to me (10 words) I couldn't follow what was being said because I'd forgotten the first 2 words when your on word #4, the next 2 words when you're on word #6, and by the time you finished your sentence I only remembered the last word - if I was still following the fact I was being spoken to.
The worst part is everyone around me saying "HTFU"..."you don't LOOK injured"... "you just need to go get some exercise"..."start doing your job again"...etc
imagine having your spouse come home every day and yell at you for being lazy because you sat on the couch all day watching tv, although you were unable to follow what you were watching, unable to remember what you watched. meanwhile you're just happy you didn't drool on your shirt. We're completely divorced now...
One of the worst things was everyone thinking they knew what you needed... oh you have sensitivity to sound? let me blast the car speakers with tons of base - you just need to get used to it. oh - you have visual disturbances and round objects make you vomit? I brought me bubble machine so that you can get used to it...
Imagine a person breaking their leg and your response is "you need to go running right away, come on, let's go!" rather than giving them the proper time to recover first. Suddenly everyone that knew me was a specialist in concussions.


I'd say that ANYONE that has been in a car crash has a concussion to some degree - the brain bounces around in the skull from impact, you don't need to physically bang your head although the doctor will always ask you that, then ignore potential concussion symptoms if you didn't bang your head. It's also a slow degradation - it's not like flicking a light switch off and suddenly you have all these symptoms... they settle in gradually then gradually begin to reduce... most concussions recover in 3 months... for me, 6 months after my 2nd crash I was still getting worse with my concussion symptoms.
Last edited by meeks on Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby gzregorz on Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:31 am

Oakland and Oregon have legalized psilocybin mushrooms.

There is a new documentary called Fantastic Fungi which I would recommend.

I experimented as a young man and find it interesting to see people now my age exploring themselves through psychedelics. I think I have already traveled that road yet I know when I felt the need to explore that these substances gave me the answers or insights I was looking for.

For me it was interesting since I know that the native or first nations people of the Americas (which is one part of my ancestry) use to explore themselves using these plants which they found on the ground right in front of them.

Yet, it seems that at one point in history this was universal probably long before governments, monarchies or religions ever existed.

I would imagine going some place where it is legal would be the best way to start and having a guide.

In terms of traumatic brain injury and even PTSD the research suggests that mushrooms can help develop new pathways in the brain. A good friend of mine was a Marine in Iraq and I believe for him whenever he was triggered and the PTSD would kick in it seemed that his brain signals would all come from the frontal lobe and he was ready for war as if he were back in Iraq. I don't believe he tried mushrooms but I can see how there were certain patterns that took him years to work through. He is much better but it took a good decade for him not to jump into combat mode over every little trigger. Today he still has problems, for example hearing fireworks brings him back to Fallujah.

If mushrooms can really help people with traumatic brain injury then that is a beautiful thing.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby RobB on Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:56 am

No help to Meeks I'm afraid but anyone who's interested might want to grab a copy of 'How to change your mind' by Michael Pollen. Lots about recent history of psychedelics, a bit on his personal exploration and finishes off with some of the neuroscience. Very readable.

Good luck Meeks. FWIW, I think you're on the right road. I'd be doing the same in your position.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby meeks on Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:49 am

meeks wrote:In terms of traumatic brain injury and even PTSD the research suggests that mushrooms can help develop new pathways in the brain. A good friend of mine was a Marine in Iraq and I believe for him whenever he was triggered and the PTSD would kick in it seemed that his brain signals would all come from the frontal lobe and he was ready for war as if he were back in Iraq. I don't believe he tried mushrooms but I can see how there were certain patterns that took him years to work through. He is much better but it took a good decade for him not to jump into combat mode over every little trigger.


I was at a lecture and one of the doctors from https://maps.org/ was speaking for an hour. He said that most PTSD treatments have an average of 21% success for treating PTSD, and if he sees a report showing over 23% he wants to see your data, he thinks your fudging the numbers. He also said that they have found a 78% success rate where people walk away from needing further treatment using MDMA (ecstasy) 3x, 3 weeks apart, over a 6 - 9 week period. That was back in 2017 and they were in stage 2 trials and waiting to get approval for stage 3 trials. Since then they've received stage 3 approval, completed the trials and last year I saw on the news that they are now in open trials, although it looks like their website is not up to date:
Together, we can cross the finish line and make MDMA a medicine
Early next year, MAPS will publish the full results of our first of two Phase 3 clinical trials for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD. Phase 3 is the final stage before seeking FDA approval for a new prescription treatment.
If successful, this treatment could transform the lives of millions of people who live with the impacts of complex trauma.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby gzregorz on Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:31 pm

On another thread we discussed Kentucky Ayhusaka which used to be on Vice. Good show! Illustrates what psychadelics can do for people in the right setting.

I never did or got interested in MDMA but I as I recall it was designed for what it seems people are realizing it can used for. I don't remember the details but I seem to remember it was supposed to used for psychiatric patients.
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Re: psychedelics as a medicine

Postby Trick on Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:31 pm

. For me it was interesting since I know that the native or first nations people of the Americas (which is one part of my ancestry) use to explore themselves using these plants which they found on the ground right in front of them.

Yet, it seems that at one point in history this was universal probably long before governments, monarchies or religions ever existed.
Well yes, anything organized would probably never happen if everyone go tripping ....Somewhere at a point in time some got to their senses, it was time to build functional societies...
. A good friend of mine was a Marine in Iraq and I believe for him whenever he was triggered and the PTSD would kick in it seemed that his brain signals would all come from the frontal lobe and he was ready for war as if he were back in Iraq. I don't believe he tried mushrooms but I can see how there were certain patterns that took him years to work through. He is much better but it took a good decade for him not to jump into combat mode over every little trigger. Today he still has problems, for example hearing fireworks brings him back to Fallujah.
Testing psychedelics on military personnel has been going on since the 50”s in the US as well as in the UK....There are videos from those early tests on the net to see the test subjects reaction to the drugs..
Wouldn’t be surprised if soldiers sent to war has been under some microdosing agenda ever since.....and PTSD is an Symptome of have been in war zones while (unknowingly)”on drugs”.... https://unbelievable-facts.com/2014/12/ ... diers.html

Even the old Viking berserkers tripped on mushrooms to come out strong while fighting.....those who survived the battles came out wrecked physically as mentally.
Last edited by Trick on Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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