Dangerous IQ Debate

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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:01 pm

Steve, definitely.
for me being a straight-shooting, standup guy qualifies me being grand royalty.
I concentrate on not being and conniving, sneaky axxhole.

Chinese calls "context", the larger environment
Last edited by Strange on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:34 am

I think it is natural to have a reaction to the scientific data presented.


While Jordan Peterson likes to think of himself as a scientist, not many scientists would agree. So, your "scientific data" may not be so scientific. If what he is doing is science, then so is history. It's a social science, not a natural one.

The point, though, is that "scientific" data can be created, manipulated, and utilized in all sorts of non-"scientific" ways.

The video I posted problematizing IQ was interviewing an actual scientist. So, what do you think of what he presented?
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:30 pm

Ian, if you count yourself as one of those that does not think
that what JP said "may not be so scientific"; I'm really perfectly alright with that

but a standard deviation is a standard deviation; it is statistical concept that is generally
agreed and accepted.
I do not know of any way to "create" scientific data that is not unethical; but i do agree
that scientific data may be manipulated and utilized to suit one's objective and purpose.

As such, my next question would be could you point out instances when JP has created,
manipulated and utilized "may not be so scientific" data to his own agenda?

Sure, I think SJG talked about the scientific data says and what could be the possible causes
and futility of using a single metric to categorise a multi-faceted phenomena like human intelligence.
And i speak as a person whose brother is dyslexic and a long-time opponent to the local educational
categorization of students called "streaming".

But it does not mean that if the data cannot describe the phenomena fully; then it is not scientific.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:10 pm

I'm a bit confused by parts of your response.

but a standard deviation is a standard deviation


Um, but standard deviations are not all the same. The standard deviation in IQ tests is designed, not naturally occurring. A great example of manipulating the data. Peterson also admits in the video that they adjust the average of these tests (to match the average White person).

I do not know of any way to "create" scientific data that is not unethical


Not sure what this means.

As such, my next question would be could you point out instances when JP has created,
manipulated [or] utilized "may not be so scientific" data to his own agenda?


This OP is a fine example.

But it does not mean that if the data cannot describe the phenomena fully; then it is not scientific.


Of course. I never said so.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:43 am

Well, like I said
one SD is one SD
if you know more than me about standard deviation;
really all the more power to you
Thanks Ian
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Giles on Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:59 am

Strange wrote:Well, like I said
one SD is one SD
if you know more than me about standard deviation;
really all the more power to you
Thanks Ian


That seems to me a gratuitously sarcastic answer that doesn't at all address what Ian said about the nature of "standard deviations".
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:11 am

hur hur hur
dunno what teh actual fuck you are talking about
but it sure smells like crap
that's my style of sarcasm for you, try sucking on it and tell me how it tastes

really man, WOW, just WOW
how the actual fuck did you gather so much from my simple and civil reply
is really amazing; you must have a freaking 190 IQ and should be working
at the Large Hadron Collider.
Hey Giles, so fucking well done, i had to stand up from me seat and applaud you
for 5 minutes! Fucking standing ovation man!! You understand me!!

You want sarcasm? that's my sarcasm for you! ;D ;D clap clap clap clap clap !!!!
Last edited by Strange on Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:57 am

Darn, I thought there was going to be further discussion about standard deviations. Of course, my first question was "standard compared to what" (or who)? And, the second was "why choose that standard?" Then, granting that the deviation is accurate, what do we do about it?

The guy who invented the IQ test did so to find those students who required more assistance, not to put them into a competitive hierarchy. As I wrote earlier, I was hired by a testing institution specifically to address the reasons for deviations among groups when it came to specific questions.

Quigga was correct that everyone has prejudices, and I can give specific instances of how prejudices affected the interpretation of data. I gave one example of a statistician refusing to believe that Chicano students all passed the advanced placement calculus exam. He will always say that his view is based on the numbers. However, he started with the expectation of the usual standard deviation. He questioned the results because he didn't see it.

Anyway, standard deviations mean nothing when it comes to any specific individual. And, every specific individual realizes this deep down. I.e., just because your "group" has a higher standard deviation doesn't mean you are. Just because most NBA players are over 6'5" doesn't mean anyone 6'5 can play basketball.:) Go through the list of "talents," and you won't find any correlation between group accomplishments and individual ability.

(More than likely, it's a matter of environment, opportunity, and tradition. It's why there've been three generations of Schumachers in F!, but only one Stephen Hawkings. Or, four or five generations of Barrymores, but not Sagans. Iow, the contributions of nature as opposed to nurture are unknown, but genetics is not sufficient. Sorry, that's why I'm interested).
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:42 am

Giles wrote:
Strange wrote:Well, like I said
one SD is one SD
if you know more than me about standard deviation;
really all the more power to you
Thanks Ian


That seems to me a gratuitously sarcastic answer that doesn't at all address what Ian said about the nature of "standard deviations".


Well, if anyone deserves sarcastic responses around here, it's probably me.

Anyway, the response just makes me think that Strange may not understand as much about science or statistics as he's letting on.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Giles on Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:23 am

Well, that certainly struck a nerve.

Turning to the actual issue: Yes, we all have prejudices (in the negative sense of the term). It's probably unavoidable because the mechanism of prejudice formation is closely tied to learning-by-experience as part of survival. If you've been attacked in the jungle or on the savannah more than once by an animal that goes "woop, woop, wip!" then in the future each time you hear "woop, woop, wip!" your tendency will be to run away from the source or try and shoot it. The same can apply to other humans with, say, green and yellow paint on their faces. And essentially that's the 'correct' response. If you spend too much time asking yourself whether the situation might be different this time, it could be too late.
But the same age-old mechanism does the same with other kinds of 'negative' information about categories or groups. Information and judgements that may be based on personal (but of course limited or possibly atypical) experience or simply acquired/inherited from the culture (large or small) you find yourself in. And immediate personal survival is no longer at stake. Then the healthy and mature response is to become aware of your own prejudices (which can be a hard task in itself) and to examine and question them for reality content (can also be hard). Ultimately, unjustified prejudices not only put others 'in a cage'. Being prejudiced this way often puts oneself 'in a cage' too.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Quigga on Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:13 am

So yes, I think everybody has positive and negative prejudices. As to what prejudices people are supposed to have for me? Rich, good looking, powerful :D Nah, I don't care, people have to figure that out for themselves.

The kind of prejudices that go: All people from X like Y! All people from X behave Z! All people from X are less capable in something than bla! Those tend to be useless since they're generalisations, not prejudices.

Whereas I think it's just naive to assume that the geographical location and it's properties don't influence a person's temperament, flair and general feeling when you're near them. Oceans, deserts, forests, big city structures and other land features definitely have a lasting impact on people growing up IMO. Heat, cold, damp, dry.

'Oh, a suspicious looking person is walking on the other side late at night. Better to ignore my prejudices so they don't feel devalued.' Good way to get hurt or worse.

What I noticed was that especially people who claim to have no prejudices tend to have more of them - especially towards people they don't like for whatever reason. Even claiming that someone is racist is a prejudice of some kind. If you can't point out differences, how do you want to connect the world?
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:19 am

What I noticed was that especially people who claim to have no prejudices tend to have more of them - especially towards people they don't like for whatever reason. Even claiming that someone is racist is a prejudice of some kind.


:) Oh, have you really met someone who claims to have no "prejudices"? Nobody says that. "Claiming" that someone is racist is an act, not a prejudice; so, I think you're confusing prejudice with bigotry and racism. Bigots are prejudiced, but their prejudgements lead them to dislike, hate, speak ill about the people they're prejudiced about. It's the difference between someone saying "Jews are smart" and someone who says "Jews are greedy." Both are examples of prejudice; one is an example of bigotry.

Racists are prejudiced (though I won't get into whether race is real or not). Racists are prejudiced, but they're also bigots. More importantly, however, true racists have power --either financial, political, or social. When someone can decide whether someone gets a job, lives in a cerrtain place, get into a certain school, can get married, or be buried in a cemetery, their "prejudices" can be critical.

My family has been in this country since before the revolution. If you're arguing that people here have always been prejudiced, then some things naturally follow. There were laws prohibiting Blacks from learning to read, going to school, and being admitted to college from the 1670s to the 1960s, based on racial prejudice. In fact, the first education "success" stories in this country were stories of Africans who taught themselves to read and became writers, poets, musicians, teachers, and politicians in the 17th century in every European country and the Americas.

Oops, sorry, I went to school for that stuff primarily because of the prejudiced professors I met as an undergrad. They were prejudiced, but not bigots or racists. After one American lit seminar, I asked why we hadn't read more Black authors, and the prof said because "there weren't any good ones." I wouldn't be a retired prof if it wasn't for that remark. :) I was also told there were no such things as African history, philosophy, literature, or mythology. Anyway, I learned to have a healthy prejudice against those types of comments and the people who held them.

Anyway, no, I don't hold any racial prejudices (because I don't believe in race. And, mixed people don't count as any race except by arbitrary choice, or unless race is just the way one looks on the outside). I do have prejudices about Americans that I don't have about Germans or Europeans. In fact, I have very specific prejudices about the Swiss that I don't have about the Italians. I enjoyed living in Europe because they didn't have the same prejudices as Americans. They had them, but they were usually positive because they weren't automatically negative. In Germany, some people I met talked about the fond memories they had of the Black GI's who gave them candy and rations.
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:54 am

Well, Ian, if I was wanting to let on anything it would be astrophysics and the behavior of black holes.
When i say one SD means one SD
I was making an opening to see if anyone of you goons (meaning you and Giles) was able to complete the
sentence. Cos you see, my sentence dun mean anything unless you can add "from the mean"
so you two goons failed the test.
Don't believe me, check it up, Singaporeans have the highest IQ around.

Hey Giles, to pick up from where i left off
why don't you just sally up to CERN and tell them you need to work there.
cos, man, i got 190

CERN guy asks: how you figure that, buddy?

Then you should say: ah you see, i saw through Strange's gratituous sarcasm on the interwebs;
I'mma freaking sharp,

CERN guys says: how you figure that?

you should open up RSF on your smart phone and say see this bit it's all ok
until he said "Thanks Ian"; then i went "AHA!"
Got him! SARCASM right there! see?!? what'd i tell you? I'm a genius
then you squint your eyes and go: "you'se guys looking for them GOD particle, right?
just let me in and what me tweak some stuff here and write some codes there
and i'ma telling yer, i'll get you your GOD particle
and then there's that Jesus particle, there's also that Moses particle, and also that
Noah particle.

But let me tell you my real big secret: when i line them all up and turn on the
switch, we shall be able to fold space and time in more positions than Kamasutra and the
Playboy Mansion put together!

Trust me! I'm a 190 IQ genius! I saw through Strange's sarcasm on the interwebs!!"
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Quigga on Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:00 am

:) Yes, I've met many people who claim to have no prejudices, who believe they have none. Those are people who claim they accept everybody just as they are and then judge people with viewpoints opposed to their own. Wanna be saints and wanna be world savers. Not necessarily talking abou race here, but all kinds of attributes a person might show. It's a form of denial.

Maybe claiming was the wrong word Steve; people hear someone share observations, get offended by that and instead of trying to see if there was something true to those observations, label someone as racist/sexist as a knee jerk response since it's easier to label someone as evil than to change their world view and view of themselves.

I'm not confused by what prejudice means, other posters (Graham, origami, Ian) are. Maybe you are too.

Wow, thanks for explaining bigotry. Wouldn't have thought that there are positive and negative prejudices. Benefit of doubt is also a positive one.

You say racists are prejudiced. Then say the same thing again and add they're bigots too. Previously you tried to define positive and negative racism, then try to deny positive racism. I think races exist. I think physical properties define person's just as much as energetic and mental one's and that all three are connected in everybody. Change the physicality, change the rest. Yes, I'm saying think of bone structures, skin colours and whatever else you want. And who cares what it means when you compare races? It's just the way things are. If every other group is smarter and better than me, so what? I'm an individual ;)

"True racists need to have power." True rapists need to have raped someone. Does crime or 'sin' not start at the level of emotion and thought? And who are you to tell persons how to use their (acquired or given) power? If they make the 'right choice' (in your eyes) by their own, cool. Otherwise you're messing with their free will. People should have the right to live with whom they want, no?

What you're claiming in the 3rd paragraph - I didn't argue that. Didn't know you were American, but I thought so (no negativity implied). I think everyone is always prejudiced in one way or the other - or they would just see information / make observation / use their senses without adding their personal opinion based on emotional and identity issues.

I didn't follow the history of blacks in America that much - I don't think it's worth more or less than any other group's history. I couldn't care less. Things are the way things are.

Well It's cool what you shared about your school experiences and what motivated you. You could call denying a group/race of history, culture, literature (transmission of info, verbal or nonverbal), philosophy, mythology just plain stupid. I also would despise such people and generally avoid them - chances are that's not the only stupid view they have.

Why don't mixed people count as anything? If I mix rum and coke I got a tasty drink (can't drink anymore - too sad!)
Do you mean there's an inside and outside race? Yet you can't have up without down.

Yes, we Germans (well I'm actually Polish, but born and raised in Germany), received lots of help from kind people :) You can find every attribute in humans everywhere - but tendencies exist and it doesn't help to ignore differences if the ignorance is based in ideology.

Maybe to clarify - I think globalisation and mixing of nations etc is a great thing. It just helps to know what it is you're adding to what and how to add everything together so the result doesn't taste like shit.

Edit: Change the rest, change the physicality. Both apply. Now add geographical features again. Soul of a country?
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Re: Dangerous IQ Debate

Postby Strange on Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:05 am

Ian and Giles, let me give you'se guys, sorry i mean goons
one more chance:

first there's Standard Deviation,
then, its from the Mean, and then there's one more thing
to make the whole thing make sense!
Wanna make a guess? huh? :D

D for Donkey~~~~
has to do with the sample data set~~~~
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