Chauvin

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Re: Chauvin

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:09 am

but you seem to be disagreeing with yourself and conceding the point.


Hmm, explain my point.


To repeat myself, if you say the court did not provide justice with a guilty verdict on all counts (then clarified it was a small victory, so your meaning on that is more clear now), and then mention that Floyd is still dead, the implication is that some other form of justice is necessary, the obvious answer being street justice, which was being called for by Congresswoman Maxine Waters directly while the jury was deliberating, other commentators indirectly, as well as the people who listen to them, like those in the clip.

However, I'll address the final comment of "Resident 3."

Resident 3 wrote: "I don't want to say we need to start killing all white folks, but it's like, maybe they need to feel the pain and the hurt."


Naw, maybe the answer speaks for itself.


What do you mean here? Your further answer in reference to what Resident 3 said sounds again like a call for retributive justice, aka street violence. Maybe I'm just reading you wrong.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby marvin8 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:22 am

There is a degree of mob justice, Cancel culture, race baiting, politicking, business, etc. Not saying justice was not served in the Chauvin case.

"Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting Analysis"

Robert Gruler Esq.
Apr 22, 2021

New claims of racism in yet another police shooting involving 16-year-old Ma'Khia Bryant.​

• In another officer involved shooting, 16-year-old #MaKhiaBryant​​ was killed in an altercation with police. ​
• Ma'Khia Bryant was seen attempting to stab another woman when officer Nicholas Reardon opened fire, killing Bryant. ​
• Protests formed last night and many in the media are already critical of the shooting, calling it premature. ​
Ben Crump, the NAACP and others respond, characterizing the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting as another racist cop killing.​


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ifTz59uvqU
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:45 am

To repeat myself, if you say the court did not provide justice with a guilty verdict on all counts (then clarified it was a small victory, so your meaning on that is more clear now), and then mention that Floyd is still dead, the implication is that some other form of justice is necessary, the obvious answer being street justice,


That's the problem. You repeat yourself, then start with "if you say" and go on to interpret what I meant. So, to begin with, you brought up "the courts" in response to something I wrote in response to the phrase "Justice." To me, it seemed like a celebration, and I didn't particularly feel like celebrating. Consequently, I wrote (and you can check)

Not justice, just a conviction.


The implication that the only thing left was street justice was totally your interpretation. Well, you could have said I was recommending a Biblical "eye for an eye," but it'd be the same bs straw man with implied ad hominem argument.

I did say that the charges could/should have been more serious. Using your definition of justice, if he gets a month in a minimum security prison, that would be justice. I say, it would just be light punishment.

Btw, there will still be protests and demonstrations when unarmed people are killed by police or in police custody. Expect it. One seems to follow the other.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:49 am

marvin8 wrote:"Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting Analysis"


All I heard was that she had a knife and was trying to stab someone. If that's the case, it was the right thing to do. If someone was about to stab me or mine, it's a no-brainer. The people who were the attempted victims will be the best witnesses.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:08 am

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting Analysis"


All I heard was that she had a knife and was trying to stab someone. If that's the case, it was the right thing to do. If someone was about to stab me or mine, it's a no-brainer. The people who were the attempted victims will be the best witnesses.


To complicate matters, she was the one who called the police because a group of women were coming after her. She was engaged in self defense when she was killed by police.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby marvin8 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:10 am

Steve James wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting Analysis"


All I heard was that she had a knife and was trying to stab someone. If that's the case, it was the right thing to do. If someone was about to stab me or mine, it's a no-brainer. The people who were the attempted victims will be the best witnesses.

Police Headlines
Apr 21, 2021

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at approx. 1630, police receive a 911 call placed by a female victim who states another female, 16-year-old Ma’Khia Bryant, is attempting to stab her and others. When the first officer, Nicholas Reardon, arrives at 3171 Legion Ln, he observes Bryant with a knife in her right hand chasing and stabbing a female on the ground. Then suddenly Bryant shifts her assault to another female and also stabs her numerous times. In an attempt to prevent further injury or death to the second female victim, Reardon shoots Bryant about four times. Bryant then collapses to the ground and officers immediately begin to render medical aid. Bryant’s knife can be seen lying by her feet after she collapses. Bryant is rushed to a local hospital, where she is pronounced dead. The two female victims sustained non-life threatening injuries and Reardon is on routine paid leave pending the outcome of the investigation. Bryant’s neighbor, who witnessed the entire incident unfold, in an interview with a news outlet said Bryant seemed to be the aggressor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CSBM9WCCzY

Candace
Apr 22, 2021

The media is LYING to you about George Floyd and Ma'Khia Bryant. Beyond just distorting the facts—which is already egregious enough—the media is actively using their influence to advance mob justice. Here's the truth: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial, and the police shooting of Ma’Khia Bryant was justified.

The woke mob may have already made up its mind, but here are the facts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3YJ24roIzk
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:38 am

"The media" is not lying to me. :) I has eyes and even gave my opinion.

Yes, it's true that the girl could have been defending herself. However, if she had the knife, she was aggressing. For her, that might have been the right thing to do. The other people could have been gang members.

This is a classic moral question. What do you do if you see someone about the stab someone else? When would it be "right" to let it happen? I wouldn't blame the cop for shooting, or for someone else either. That's from what I know of the situation. The only thing that relates this to the Floyd case is that there's video. I doubt any charges will be filed or a trial.

The kid who was shot with his hands up is a better example, or the guy in his garage holding his cell phone. Well, maybe the kid killed when the officer mistook a taser for a glock. Yeah, there might be demonstrations about them if the officers are charged lightly and punished lightly.

Anyway, Alan Dershowitz is arguing that Chauvin should be released on bond until the appeal process is over. He argues that, if it takes two years, how will Chauvin get that time back? Good question, though most people convicted of murder are not let out. True. He is an officer of the law, well-recognized, and (perhaps) unlikely to flee. Otoh, solitary confinement is probably the safest place for him. Walking in public or being in gen-pop in jail might not be so safe. No sympathy; it's not "safe" for anyone. However, it is fair that he's put where everybody else would be put.

(A guy named Rawls wrote a book A Theory of Justice in which he considered "justice as fairness." During the trial, it struck me that one defense witness argued that "the police don't have to fight fair." I wondered if that included torture. Anyway, Rawls, Stephen Jay Gould and Alan Dershowitz gave a class where they discussed the issue from their points of view --philosophy, biology, and the law).
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:42 am

Kinda pisses me off when people tell me I've made up my mind before they even ask me. The only thing worse is when someone in "the media" uses it, and then people repeat it.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:47 am

I did say that the charges could/should have been more serious. Using your definition of justice, if he gets a month in a minimum security prison, that would be justice. I say, it would just be light punishment.

No, that wouldn't be my definition of justice, and I don't think anyone expects a light sentence, like what Oscar Grant's killer received, but we'll have to wait and see.

Btw, there will still be protests and demonstrations when unarmed people are killed by police or in police custody. Expect it. One seems to follow the other.


Really? That's not been the pattern so far. The extremely serious problem of excessive police force (which I have been posting about on RSF and EF for many years), including the killing of unarmed, compliant people, sometimes without warning, is only followed by protests, demonstrations, and rioting when the people involved can be portrayed in a way that fits a narrative where moral outrage can be used by the powerful in order to manipulate mobs through a media that lies, spins, and also lies by omission. The results of these "protests and demonstrations", the karma I assume you referred to, have reduced the chances for police reform, not increased them. They also increased violence overall last year, in the very neighborhoods of the protestors, indicated by the huge increase in murders and shootings after police were defunded and discouraged from doing their jobs.

For an example of when the narrative didn't fit, in 2017 a Minneapolis police officer named Noor shot and killed, through his partner's patrol car window, and without warning, the unarmed woman Justine Damond, who had called the police to investigate a suspicious sound of an attack outside her house in the wee hours, where she had ventured in her pajamas in order to meet the responding officers. Despite your claim, no protest or demonstration followed because this shooting did not cynically fit a narrative and no, uhm, community resources or lying prestitutes were mobilized in order escalate racial tensions.

Perhaps the recently announced DoJ investigation into the Minneapolis police will take the Damond shooting into account so it may eventually result in better policing.
Michael

 

Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:25 pm

Despite your claim, no protest or demonstration followed because this shooting did not cynically fit a narrative and no, uhm, community resources or lying prestitutes were mobilized in order escalate racial tensions.


My son lives in MN. There weren't the same kind of demonstrations because there were no racial tensions. Noor was a "Black" officer and the woman killed was visiting from Australia (but "White" in any case).

Call me silly, but who exactly was going to protest what? Um, who said that the shooting was unwarranted? The community. Noor went on trail and was imprisoned. So, no it didn't fit the "narrative." A Black cop accidentally/negligently shot an unarmed White woman and went to prison.

I repeat. He went to prison. Then again, he admitted that he was wrong. There were protests after Breonna Taylor's shooting, too. You know, the woman shot dead in her bed while sleeping. Oh yeah, he boyfriend shot at police. Fucking right. What are guns for. Remember Ruby Ridge? He should have had better aim. This is America.

On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Noor claimed self defense. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder.[5] In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.[6] Damond's family brought a civil lawsuit against the City of Minneapolis alleging violation of Damond's civil rights, which the city settled for US$20 million.[7][6]
Last edited by Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:54 pm

marvin8 wrote:

Candace
Apr 22, 2021

The media is LYING to you about George Floyd and Ma'Khia Bryant. Beyond just distorting the facts—which is already egregious enough—the media is actively using their influence to advance mob justice. Here's the truth: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial, and the police shooting of Ma’Khia Bryant was justified.

The woke mob may have already made up its mind, but here are the facts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3YJ24roIzk


I don't think I can imagine a more surefire way to undermine your credibility on social issues than by posting a video clip of Candice Owens to make your case. :o

Also, notice how the conservtives have to conflate the two incidents because they look like complete raving racist maniacs if they defend Chauvin.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:59 pm

There is a degree of mob justice, Cancel culture, race baiting, politicking, business, etc.


Good job, these are most of the hot button issues from OAN, Newsmax, and Fox. But, what do they have to do with anything?

Was the orderly trial of Chauvin mob justice? No. He was condemned by many of his fellow LEOs and then found guilty by a jury of his peers.

Cancel Culture? I see much more of that coming from the Right these days. No surprise there. What does it have to do with the trial? Nothing.

Race baiting? Was race part of the charges in the trial? Nope.

Politiking? And then you post a video of the grifter CO. lol.

Business? See the above.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:29 pm

Remember Ruby Ridge? He should have had better aim. This is America.

Let's gooooooooo!

There weren't the same kind of demonstrations because there were no racial tensions.

There are certainly racial tensions anywhere in the USA where people with televisions live next to people of other races who also have televisions. Academia, media, etc., promote anti-racism and violence as a cure for racism.

I repeat. He went to prison. Then again, he admitted that he was wrong.

Chauvin was arrested, fired, and charged very quickly, then put on trial and convicted. Racism was never alleged by the prosecution in the Chauvin trial. It wasn't mentioned once.

The Noor case was much, much more outrageous, and I do not recall that he admitted fault as in copped to a guilty plea immediately. Considering the eruption of violence and threats against Chauvin in his case, I think it's difficult to compare him to the Noor case as to whether or not that Chauvin did not admit guilt is part of the reason for the protests. They were protesting and rioting the same day as Floyd died. And again, the Noor case was much more egregious and inexcusable from all the objective angles.

I say the basic problem is the excessive force. It is the only angle from which reform can be achieved, as evidenced by the past year of rioting and defunding that has resulted in the greatest increase in murders in over 30 years, additionally they're murders of blacks, who were supposedly needing additional protection.

When a white police kills a non-white, somehow his motive is known to be racist and made the focus of the problem, but if it's a non-white police or a white victim, then the motive is merely negligence. That's part of the narrative that promotes mob violence.

Taking the racial angle has resulted in exactly the opposite of the stated goal, but that's why this case and others were blown-up, because they fit a narrative and achieve what must be the predictable and actual goal: increased racial tensions that will lead to some kind of tipping point.
Last edited by Michael on Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:39 pm

Cancel Culture? I see much more of that coming from the Right these days. No surprise there. What does it have to do with the trial? Nothing.


Maybe he means that Chauvin is a victim of cancel culture, which leads to the question of what culture does a murderer represent? I guess he's a hero figure like Rittenhouse, the Kenosha killer with the police supporters. If he had gotten the "fair trial" that CO suggests, and he had been exonerated, would that ben the opposite of cancel culture?
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Re: Chauvin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:02 pm

The Noor case was much, much more outrageous


And, Noor's charges were increased to "intentional" murder, and Noor was tried, found guilty, and given a 12 year stretch. So, are you saying that, in his case, "justice" was not served? The Damand family received a $20 million dollar settlement. Aren't you satisfied? Isn't it justice. The officer made a split second decision in the dark. He claimed that he thought he was being attacked.

Note that I said that Chauvin's charges should have been upgraded. "Outrageous""? Do you actually believe that Noor intentionally shot Damand, but Chauvin didn't intentionally asphyxiate Floyd?

I asked earlier. Who did you expect to protest the Damand killing? Well, the Somalia-American community did. Look it up. Can you guess why? Look at how unusually significant people find the Chauviin verdict.

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