Illegal orders

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Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 8:16 am

For those Having served, and others versed in the constitution

Commanding General at Fort Campbell Issues New Guidelines – Unvaccinated Soldiers Cannot Take Pass or Leave Base – Considered Non-Deployable


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... eployable/

Do the guidelines issued by the general violate the constitution

As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration.[4]


The enlistment oath

"I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God"


Illegal orders

UCMJ article 92

In all cases, these elements involve orders that were issued lawfully. All orders or regulations are lawful unless they violate the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders. An order may be unlawful if the officer who gave the order did not have the authority to give it.


Vaccine is issued under an emergency order by the President of the United States has not been approved by the FDA .

Apr 14, 2021 · Currently, no coronavirus vaccine is fully approved by the FDA, but three were given emergency use authorization by the agency


Unlike other vaccinations given in the military, this one cannot be considered as mandatory to be taken in performance of one’s duties. It’s still issued under emergency guidance therefore experimental.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Steve James on Thu May 13, 2021 8:52 am

Fwiw, my son, retired-Colonel, agrees that the order is questionable precisely because there is no Army vaccination mandate. As a commander, he could deny all leave. In addition, "this commander needs to solidify a compliance policy for flu vaccine also, if not in place, to be consistent." Otoh, afa vaccinations, he remembers getting shots in both arms, buttocks and legs before being deployed. So, if the Army mandated the vaccine, the soldiers would have no choice.

Later message:
Re-reading it, he covered his bases by simply saying "unvaccinated" which will apply to flu and other vaccines. Now the installation has the challenge of compliance for those other vaccines which they haven't been enforcing.


Hey, here's the vid of his retirement ceremony at Arlington. Yeah, proud dad s__t. (22:28)
Last edited by Steve James on Thu May 13, 2021 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 am

Respect for your son’s service.

Retired E-7 “ platoon sergeant“
among other positions.

In the 70s as a young medic we administered the swine flu shots to our infantry battalion in Germany , it put half the battalion out of action they discontinued the vaccination within the same year.

For the most part never cared much for officers,
Your son sounds like he was one of the better ones.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 9:14 am

Because the vaccinations have not been approved by the FDA, they are still in what might be called phase 3 of the trial process.

The military cannot mandate them as part of the requirements of service, as they are not officially approved.
When I was in, if someone refused the vaccinations they would probably be chaptered out of the military unable to fulfill the requirements of service.

There is something called intent.

A lot of times those in command may not directly violate a law they don’t agree with
but circumvent it through their intent, Issuing guidance or policy that has the force of a direct order.

Expect this guidance to be challenged
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Steve James on Thu May 13, 2021 9:18 am

Thanks. I think he's a good guy who worries about his crew.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 9:29 am

Steve James wrote:Thanks. I think he's a good guy who worries about his crew.


Yep, sounds like one of the better ones
You don’t mention if he was a full bird colonel, or light
with his own command.

Yep taking care of one’s
“ soldiers” accomplishing the mission.

Not so easy
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Steve James on Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 am

Because the vaccinations have not been approved by the FDA, they are still in what might be called phase 3 of the trial process.


Ok, but the emergency use authorization will change to approval because millions of people will have received the vaccine. Do you think any of the vaccines will not be approved? Afa covid-19, it'spossible thhat the current vaccines are not effective against next year's variant. So, there'll be a new round of vaccines --needing emergency authorization.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Thu May 13, 2021 10:02 am

Steve James wrote:
Because the vaccinations have not been approved by the FDA, they are still in what might be called phase 3 of the trial process.


Ok, but the emergency use authorization will change to approval because millions of people will have received the vaccine. Do you think any of the vaccines will not be approved? Afa covid-19, it'spossible thhat the current vaccines are not effective against next year's variant. So, there'll be a new round of vaccines --needing emergency authorization.



My post was posted, because of what seemed to be a violation of the UCMJ through command intent.
Was interested in reading others views on it.

Regarding this virus, there are many unanswered questions as to its origins.

Once those questions are answered, it will help to understand whether new vaccinations will be needed
for the variants that develop from it.

The long term effects of the vaccinations are not known,
as they’ve never went through the normal period of trials for it.

In the 70s the same thing happened with the swine flu shots, was discontinued within a year.

There are many therapeutics that have proven to be effective against combating the effects of the virus.
As more therapeutics are found or developed, allowing the bodies own immunity systems to combat the virus there will be less reliance on a need for vaccinations.


It would be interesting to know how or why the vaccinations were able to be developed within a year as compared to other viruses or diseases.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Tom on Thu May 13, 2021 11:51 am

windwalker wrote:. . . .

The long term effects of the vaccinations are not known,
as they’ve never went through the normal period of trials for it.

In the 70s the same thing happened with the swine flu shots, was discontinued within a year.

There are many therapeutics that have proven to be effective against combating the effects of the virus.
As more therapeutics are found or developed, allowing the bodies own immunity systems to combat the virus there will be less reliance on a need for vaccinations.


It would be interesting to know how or why the vaccinations were able to be developed within a year as compared to other viruses or diseases.


Good questions.

With respect to the speed of development, the use of new mRNA technology in the development of the Covid-19 vaccines and the relatively slow rate of change in the virus itself helped.

The world was able to develop COVID-19 vaccines so quickly because of years of previous research on related viruses and faster ways to manufacture vaccines, enormous funding that allowed firms to run multiple trials in parallel, and regulators moving more quickly than normal. Some of those factors might translate to other vaccine efforts, particularly speedier manufacturing platforms.

But there’s no guarantee. To repeat such rapid success will require similar massive funding for development, which is likely to come only if there is a comparable sense of social and political urgency. It will depend, too, on the nature of the pathogen. With SARS-CoV-2, a virus that mutates relatively slowly and that happens to belong to a well-studied family, scientists might — strange as it sounds — have got lucky.


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Bao on Sat May 15, 2021 6:35 am

I would think that the financing process as well as a lot of collaboration between authorities to speed up formalities and the whole general process.

But still, As WW mentions, We don’t know any long term effects. A vaccine usually undergoes one to two years of study to determine long time effects. And also, not all of the vaccines have had thoroughly studies on certain special groups of people, as pregnant women, people from other continents/races etc.

So there are definitely some question marks and uncertainty
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby oragami_itto on Sat May 15, 2021 6:51 am

As a veteran, when you're enlisted they own your ass. If the commander says you don't leave the base without a shot, you don't leave the base without a shot. Take your complaints about illegal orders to your first Sargent.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby Steve James on Sat May 15, 2021 7:34 am

Two issues. Soldiers aren't refusing the vaccine out of fear that they haven't been tested enough or what's in it. They can refuse because the Army hasn't mandated vaccination. There's no law that the Army has to wait for FDA approval, but there are real ethical considerations about forcing people to participate in experimentation.

Forcing people to take these particular vaccines would be unethical. However, the covid pandemic is an emergency. At least, most of the world thinks so. Consequently, the vaccines are provided on a voluntary basis. Here, people have the luxury of refusing to take them. Of course, in two years or less -when the FDA approves them, they can be mandated; but it will be two years too late.

Here's the thing. Six months ago, people weren't being hospitalized or dying from the vaccine. The vaccines were developed to provide protection from the worst effects of the virus. Sure, people can argue that the virus was never that serious; but, imo, it's silly to argue that the vaccine is more dangerous. So, if the vaccine works, the vaccinated will be more protected than the unvaccinated --even from new variants enabled by the spread of the virus.

Herd immunity used to be the big hope. Well, we'll get there, but how. Fwiw, most of the people in my immediate family and friends were reluctant, but got vaccinated. That's why I got to travel. However, even though the CDC has lifted mask regulations for the vaccinated, I'm gonna continue to wear my mask. We all know that people who were against masks before aren't going to wear them now. Hopefully, theyre' right; but, they've survived so far.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Sat May 15, 2021 7:56 am

Recent history to help explain the context, of why some military members may not trust the new vaccinations.


The Pentagon must stop forcing servicemen and women to take the anthrax vaccination against their will, unless President Bush signs a special order, a judge ruled Monday.

Millions of shots have been given and hundreds of service members have been punished for refusing them since the mandatory vaccinations started in 1998.

The judge ruled that the anthrax vaccinations fell under a 1998 law prohibiting the use of certain experimental drugs unless people being given the drug consent or the president waives the consent requirement.



Congress passed the law following fears that the use of such drugs may have led to unexplained illnesses among veterans of the 1991 Persian Gulf War that have come to be known as Gulf War Syndrome.

"The women and men of our armed forces put their lives on the line every day to preserve and safeguard the freedoms that all Americans cherish and enjoy," said Judge Emmet G. Sullivan of the United States District Court in Washington.

Sullivan issued a preliminary injunction, saying, "The United States cannot demand that members of the armed forces also serve as guinea pigs for experimental drugs."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/judge-us-c ... -vaccines/

The same thing happened in the 70s with the swine Flu-vaccinations that we administered, later discontinued within the same year. In that time if someone refused the vaccination, they would more than likely be chaptered out of the service not able to fill the requirements to serve.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 15, 2021 5:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Illegal orders

Postby windwalker on Sat May 15, 2021 8:22 am

“Commanding General at Fort Campbell Issues New Guidelines – Unvaccinated Soldiers Cannot Take Pass or Leave Base – Considered Non-Deployable”


The general by issuing guidance or making a policy is trying to circumvent the law, understanding he does not have the authority to issue an order mandating Covid-19 vaccinations will be taken.

An abuse of what is called command intent.
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