Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:51 am

leaving was conditionally based,


You can actually read the agreement. Would you care to point out what those "conditions" might be?

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upload ... .29.20.pdf

Here's what I see.

We let out 5000 prisoners.
We promised to leave in 146 days.
We promised not to interfere in domestic affairs.

Concessions demanded in return:
Just talk to the puppet government we installed.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:52 am

The Taliban didn't agree to give anything back. And, even if they did, why would they?


Maybe because once it’s made clear they’ll get the shit bombed out of them trying to keep it
of course with the present administration they might end up buying our own equipment back or paying them to destroy it.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:59 am

oragami_itto wrote:
leaving was conditionally based,


You can actually read the agreement. Would you care to point out what those "conditions" might be?

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upload ... .29.20.pdf

Here's what I see.

We let out 5000 prisoners.
We promised to leave in 146 days.
We promised not to interfere in domestic affairs.

Concessions demanded in return:
Just talk to the puppet government we installed.



Not really interested in past history concerning the situation.

Only commenting on the shit show unfolding now

Agreements are made once an understanding is reached.
The understanding itself doesn’t have to be spelled out in an agreement.

It’s understood, by all parties involved.
Without this understanding there is no possible agreement that can be made.

By making it known should anything happen that disrupts the agreement,
They will be subjugated to the effects of the verbal understanding that allowed for the agreement.

A method for retaining flexibility of outcome .
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:35 am

windwalker wrote:It’s understood, by all parties involved.
Without this understanding there is no possible agreement that can be made.


What's understood is what's on paper.

Presidents, traditionally, honor the treaties of their predecessors.

The agreement signed by this country drew our forces down to 2500 troops. What are they going to do that we didn't manage with ten times that many over 20 years? You're a military genius, right? Care to explain what your strategy would be?

We trained 300,000 soldiers to defend their own country. Those soldiers weren't interested in doing the job. Sorry not sorry, time to stop wasting money we could be spending on our own citizens.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:39 am

Remember that Trump didn't allow the Biden transition team to see any intelligence info?
That’s because the negotiations with the Taliban weren’t complete. That was after the election in November, and the agreement wasn't signed until February 29th. But, the real reason? It's because he wouldn't concede the election.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... t-n1247294

It would have been helpful, imo, for the incoming administration to get reports about a situation that they'd be responsible for --in May.

Afa reading the agreement, I posted the f-ing thing because I read it. In fact, the reason I brought up the agreement at all was originally because the Republican national committee and Trump scrubbed their websites of references to their comments on it. The Taliban were the winners in that agreement because Trump handed Afghanistan to them. The Taliban didn't promise or guarantee safe passage for Afghans who weren't Taliban. They are not supposed to allow other terrorist groups to operate, but ISIS/ISIL is apparently operating.

I get the idea that the Taliban were in control and are the legitimate power. The end result is that we're leaving. The alternative is staying, which won't be likely in a Taliban controlled Afghanistan, which we agreed to leave. If we don't, then we're breaking Trump's (or "our") agreement. Biden didn't negotiate with the Taliban; he set a date for leaving. Yeah, it's messy; but everyone knows it was going to be messy for the Afghans. It's been messy for them before and since we arrived.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:41 am

Over our country’s 20 years at war in Afghanistan, America has sent its finest young men and women, invested nearly $1 trillion dollars, trained over 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police, equipped them with state-of-the-art military equipment, and maintained their air force as part of the longest war in U.S. history. One more year, or five more years, of U.S. military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country. And an endless American presence in the middle of another country’s civil conflict was not acceptable to me.

When I came to office, I inherited a deal cut by my predecessor—which he invited the Taliban to discuss at Camp David on the eve of 9/11 of 2019—that left the Taliban in the strongest position militarily since 2001 and imposed a May 1, 2021 deadline on U.S. Forces. Shortly before he left office, he also drew U.S. Forces down to a bare minimum of 2,500. Therefore, when I became President, I faced a choice—follow through on the deal, with a brief extension to get our Forces and our allies’ Forces out safely, or ramp up our presence and send more American troops to fight once again in another country’s civil conflict. I was the fourth President to preside over an American troop presence in Afghanistan—two Republicans, two Democrats. I would not, and will not, pass this war onto a fifth.


Really, what more is there to say?
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:55 am

What's understood is what's on paper.

Presidents, traditionally, honor the treaties of their predecessors.


So now it’s a treaty.
You do understand how treaties are made and the difference between that and agreement don’t you?

It’s a strange conversation where it’s conveniently ignored that the present administration canceled or disregarded most of the agreements made by the prior administration.

But relies on the fiction that it was bound to follow the last administrations agreement, When it totally f…… up in planning and execution based on their timetable.

When the conversation gets around to the shit show on the ground, and possible recommendations of what some feel should happen it might be interesting.

Carry on
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:43 pm

Here's one Republican's suggestion.
Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) on Sunday called for the U.S. to maintain a "light footprint" in Afghanistan to combat potential terrorists in the country in light of the Taliban taking control of the country's capital.

Speaking to "Fox News Sunday" host Chris Wallace, Sasse argued that President Biden should make it clear that he could change his mind on the U.S. withdrawal if any aggression is made towards American citizens and allies.


To be somewhat fair, he went on to say:

After Taliban fighters entered Kabul last Sunday, Sasse condemned what he called the "Trump-Biden doctrine of weakness" that resulted in Taliban's takeover.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-tal ... nce-in?amp

Like I said, Biden's going to be painted as a "weak" "war monger." Sure, let's have a war on terrorism ... because now the Taliban are in control. Right. We're going to keep a presence in Afghanistan to monitor terrorist groups. And, for how long will this go on? Until the Taliban are defeated? Why didn't Trump just defeat the Taliban, anyway?

Anyway, a government is a government. We had no right to invade Afghanistan, except to get back at Al Qaeda and destroy its bases there. That job was done before we invaded Iraq. Fwiw, the whole war powers act that gave the right to declare war without Congress was a big mistake.

I'm mind reading again, but it's from experience, if Trump were in office now, all this would be blamed on the Afghan army and the US generals --'cause everybody knows that Presidents don't determine the logistics of evacuations or military operations. Anyway, the only thing that will stop the Taliban was to defeat them, and that was never even the mission.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:41 pm

Image

Yes, President Donald Trump signed a bad deal with the Taliban, especially in getting the Afghan government to release 5,000 prisoners.

But Biden has no hesitancy in reversing other Trump policies, and there was no reason why he had to embrace the decision to bring all the troops home when the mission had found the right balance and was succeeding.


https://nypost.com/2021/08/16/a-catastr ... d-goodwin/


Whether the decision to pull out of Afghanistan was good or not, only time will tell.
something that was decided, carried forward from previous administrations.

Don't quite understand giving up a strategic position once gained.
The Chinese understand this very well building their artificial islands in the South China Sea.

One can not say what would have happened under the last administration
They had a strategy and plan, expecting to execute it
after the election...

For what ever reason not executed by the incoming administration.
To say they were bound by it, a fiction...as shown by history
when other administrations reversed their own policies due to changes on the ground.

This administration could have done the same.

It's obvious what did happen and is happening now.


Documentary on the Taliban for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x3sAX-9poo
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:21 am

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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:56 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
leaving was conditionally based,


You can actually read the agreement. Would you care to point out what those "conditions" might be?

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upload ... .29.20.pdf

Here's what I see.

We let out 5000 prisoners.
We promised to leave in 146 days.
We promised not to interfere in domestic affairs.

Concessions demanded in return:
Just talk to the puppet government we installed.


Clearing up some things to a question

You seemed to either have missed or not understood.

PART TWO
In conjunction with the announcement of this agreement, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is
not recognized by the United States as a state and is known as the Taliban will take the following steps
to prevent any group or individual, including al-Qa’ida, from using the soil of Afghanistan to threaten
the security of the United States and its allies:



1. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban will not allow any of its members, other individuals or groups, including
al-Qa’ida, to use the soil of Afghanistan to threaten the security of the United States and its
allies.


2. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban will send a clear message that those who pose a threat to the security
of the United States and its allies have no place in Afghanistan, and will instruct members of
the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban not to cooperate with groups or individuals threatening the security of
the United States and its allies.


3. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban will prevent any group or individual in Afghanistan from threatening
the security of the United States and its allies, and will prevent them from recruiting, training,
and fundraising and will not host them in accordance with the commitments in this agreement.

4. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban is committed to deal with those seeking asylum or residence in
Afghanistan according to international migration law and the commitments of this agreement,
so that such persons do not pose a threat to the security of the United States and its allies.

5. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and
is known as the Taliban will not provide visas, passports, travel permits, or other legal
documents to those who pose a threat to the security of the United States and its allies to enter
Afghanistan.




The original agreement was conditions based.
The Afghan government at the time was in charge of the prison system,

E. With the start of intra-Afghan negotiations, the United States will start diplomatic engagement
with other members of the United Nations Security Council and Afghanistan to remove
members of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as

a state and is known as the Taliban from the sanctions list with the aim of achieving this
objective by May 29, 2020, which corresponds to Shawwal 6, 1441 on the Hijri Lunar calendar
and Jawza 9, 1399 on the Hijri Solar calendar.
. III

F. The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the
territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic
affairs



There was a process that for what ever reason was not allowed to continue.

Its over now regardless.

Condolences to all who lost a life in the process.

Operation Recovery is supporting Veteran Owned Businesses that are seeking to repatriate American Citizens and Afghan allies.


https://www.operationrecovery.org/
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:37 pm

havent read through the thread so maybe it has been mentioned ?

that the US just left behind military equipent worth som $85billion.......
(thats 5 yearly budgets for the swedish armed forces, if i got the info right.)

and the current US government advocate a gunless population..... 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:11 am

Trick wrote:that the US just left behind military equipent worth som $85billion.......
(thats 5 yearly budgets for the swedish armed forces, if i got the info right.)


(As I counted, it's actually more than 10 x last year's budget. But my math sucks, so maybe I got it wrong.)
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:47 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:that the US just left behind military equipent worth som $85billion.......
(thats 5 yearly budgets for the swedish armed forces, if i got the info right.)


(As I counted, it's actually more than 10 x last year's budget. But my math sucks, so maybe I got it wrong.)

no, your math is probably right, (i kind of just took the word out from another writer) so yes, the US waste of its tax-payer money is even worse than worse....... or perhaps that money was made from the poppy fields they let prosper.....
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Re: Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul (August 15, 2021)

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:55 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:that the US just left behind military equipent worth som $85billion.......
(thats 5 yearly budgets for the swedish armed forces, if i got the info right.)


(As I counted, it's actually more than 10 x last year's budget. But my math sucks, so maybe I got it wrong.)

no, your math is probably right, (i kind of just took the word out from another writer) so yes, the US waste of its tax-payer money is even worse than worse....... or perhaps that money was made from the poppy fields they let prosper.....


Well if you want to get technical about it that's all gear that we GAVE the Afghanistans over 20 years. It's not like they were current assets that we just abandoned. It's stuff we gave them that they didn't have the knowledge or infrastructure to maintain and which from what I understand was largely sabotaged on the way out the door.

what they've got is a shitload of salvageable steel.
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