Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

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Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby everything on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:40 pm

Watched hours of a show on UFOs.

Here is some TL;DR:

The US Navy publicly says the recently leaked/released footage is real, and they consider the objects UAP.

They don’t know how the UAP moved so fast.

Some dude who worked at Area 51 supposedly studied “alien tech”. He predicted some substance (fuel) to be Element 115.

Around 2015, scientists synthesized Element 115.

It’s too expensive at this time to make large quantities, and it is unstable.

Humans do not have an application of it.

The wild conjecture:
Einstein says gravity is actually bending of space time by a large mass.
The way a UAP can move so fast is “anti gravity”. This is wild conjecture since humans have no theory or knowledge.
With a rocket, you use massive energy to fight gravity.
With this UAP tech, once you aren’t dealing with this issue, it takes little energy to move up, down, left, right, forward,
Backward. You are “weightless” like in space. So the UAP seem to bend the laws of physics as we can currently understand/use. But this theory is what they could come up with that would make sense to us (without understanding the theory or the tech). It’s probably the only explanation we can conceive of (if there really are these UAP flying).
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:55 pm

With a rocket, you use massive energy to fight gravity.
With this UAP tech, once you aren’t dealing with this issue, it takes little energy to move up, down, left, right, forward,


Ok,that's not necessarily true. Rockets don't function most efficiently in the atmosphere. The main problem with moving up, down, left, right is aerodynamics. Hovering and then shooting off at high speed is amazing in the atmosphere because it's possible.

However, inter-stellar conditions with microgravity and no atmosphere changes everything. Alien technology would require aliens able to withstand the physics. So, on one hand, there's a possible technology available to humans; but using it would probably kill a human. I.e., the g-force of moving instantaneously from 0 to ... way faster than any rocket or plane we know of wouldn't be nice for the passenger; going from ludicrous speed immediately to 0 would leave a spot on the cabin wall. :)

That's regardless of the power source. I think if anti-gravity were found, it'd be a great thing. But, gravity isn't the problem in space. Afa the people who've seen alien tech, I have no idea. I think people can only compare what they see to what they've seen. I can't rule out that what they saw was advanced earth technology.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:12 am

not sure what you mean about the rockets. for the anti-gravity theory, presumably if there is a living creature inside the UAP with the anti-gravity, I guess when it moves super fast, that creature doesn't feel the gravity effect inside the UAP (so isn't splattered on the wall) because this tech doesn't just apply for the UAP moving. perhaps it applies inside of it. not the same, I guess, but a human or a bug inside the moving car feels relatively still in the reference point of the car. who knows. we don't have this tech, so it's only a wild theory since we can't seem to think of what else it could be. in our known physics, the observed phenomena cannot happen. if we believe they happened, there is some other explanation we do not (yet?) have.

for the pilots who saw the UAP, at least in the public domain, nobody knows if it's alien tech or earth tech, and further, the congressional reps said they want to know. it seems there are 2 or 3 alternatives:

1. earth tech and for some reason, there has been no leaks... wouldn't we already find amazing applications of it? wouldn't spies find out about it? wouldn't someone who has it be working on commercialization (getting very rich) or militarization? the first case seems unlikely to be secret. the second case... who knows.
2. alien tech... this would also be a who knows.
3. could be a combination. so if it were military and alien .... again falls in the who knows category.

3/4 probability (3 of those 4 cases) it would be top secret.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Giles on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:46 am

Deleted , wrong thread...
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:57 am

The problem of traveling at very high speed and changing direction, or starting from low speed and going to a very high one, is a matter of acceleration. Sure, if everything in a vehicle is traveling at a high speed, all's good --whether the passengers are weightless or not. I.e., it's true in Earth's gravity or in the microgravity of space. In fact, creating artificial gravity is a dream. Acceleration increases the apparent force of gravity on a passenger, even in a weightless environment.

Fun fact; it would take about a year for a vehicle accelerating at a constant 1G (Earth gravity) carrying a human passenger to get to near light speed. Of course, pilots and race car drivers take 5,6,7 and more Gs when the change direction or dive. But, let's say we could take 10Gs, and cut the time down to a month. Then, ya still gotta slow down, and that's going to take a month. Meanwhile, everything and everyone you know will be long gone if you decide to return.

Alien beings, if they have mass, will be subject to the same physics. I can imagine how beings might overcome those problems, but those beings won't be like us or use technology we'd use. That is, if they come from a system in our nearest star.

I'm more inclined to believe that whatever found is human technology or the use of technology to make something appear alien or confusing. I don't automatically dismiss what people say they've seen. However, I don't think it's impossible that beings can exist as energy or in some massless state.

Anyway, afa human tech, anti-matter solves the energy problem. A little bit would go a long way. Buut, if you have it, what do you put it in? Hence, Scotty or Jordi's "antimatter containment vessels" --and to real theories about how to do it. I'd put my money there. Yeah, worm holes, folding space, etc., are out there.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:52 pm

It seems more likely to me we don’t understand this physics.
I don’t understand this “bending” of space time (even though GPS satellites adjust for it).

Not sure humans understand it yet. So “impossible” according to current physics seems presumptuous when we know we don’t understand these things (AFAIK).
In Newtonian physics there is gravity.

In Einstein physics there is space time bending. We know that is real from our GPS application using it.

But not sure we understand much about it. To make an analogy we have to imagine something in 3D like a trampoline bending when a weight is on it. We don’t have a way to understand 4D.

So I’m not sure we can ever understand.

It’s already clear from the pilots that it seems impossible to us (I assume using Newtonian physics laws).
But if it’s earth tech, then clearly it is possible.
(If the video and eyewitness accounts can be trusted).

If we say there is no life form aboard, maybe that makes it easier to deal with the gravity problem.

If we say it’s alien tech that “understands” 4D, then our “laws” (in our 3D Newtonian world) may not apply. We can’t really know just like Flat Stanley couldn’t understand our world.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:37 am

If we say it’s alien tech that “understands” 4D, then our “laws” (in our 3D Newtonian world) may not apply. We can’t really know just like Flat Stanley couldn’t understand our world.


There's a difference between understanding and explaining. We can imagine many things. If by 4D you mean travel through time, no physical laws change. If you're mean that our 3D perspective limits our view of something in a "fourth" dimension, that's true. We wouldn't see it, and we wouldn't be talking about finding pieces from it either.:) Yeah, we in the 3D world can see the 2D (flat) world, but that world is an illusion. Everything we can see is 3D. Atoms are 3D. (But, then we get to the idea of a holographic universe).

Afa as the laws of physics in other dimensions, there are interesting theories about that. Ever watch PBS Spacetime on YouTube? One theory is that this universe (in this dimension) only exists because of these specific physical rules.

Anyway, just as when it comes to ancient marvels, aliens are at the bottom of my list of possibilities. I'd love to see alien tech, though if someone did find it, could they make it work for them? I dunno.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:53 am

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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby everything on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:42 am

I was just reading about an aside on the holographic universe in The God Equation. Well, more that it's a side story to help illustrate the search for a unified theory. Some TL;DR:

- there is a "supersymmetric" theory that predicts subatomic particle movement in four dimensions.
- someone named Maldacena found it's equivalent to a certain string theory in 10 dimensions.

this is where this conjecture comes from. when we move, our shadow follows us in 2 dimensions, even though (according to us), we live in the 3D world of length, width, height. But now, speculatively, it seems possible we live in 10-11 dimensions, but we experience our "shadow" in three dimensions. Or is it that the 10-11d universe is like a "hologram" (3d image made from 2d info)? Nobody seems to know.

With the UAP, maybe the idea is we see the "3d shadow" of something that obeys the (not yet known) laws of physics in 10-11 dimensions.

The main takeaway seems to be there are so many known unknowns.

Astronomers have found only 4.9% of the universe is made of atoms (remember as kids, we learned everything is made of atoms). Now they think most of the universe is made of "dark matter" and "dark energy" - invisible to us, our instruments, our theories. WTH. So is the UAP using some "energy" we don't understand? It seems more likely yes than no (if we are correct we don't even know 95.1% of what the universe is made out of, how can we be so arrogant to think we understand more than 4.9% of stuff?).
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby everything on Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:24 am

All the reports consist of reliable eyewitness testimony and, more importantly, corroborating radar data. In the Nimitz case, objects were tracked on radar several times, descending from 28,000 feet, which is about five miles up, down to sea level in about .7 seconds. How fast is that? Knuth did the math.

"So those accelerations we estimated were on the order of about 5000 G's, which is 5,000 times the acceleration of gravity, which is really crazy. Our fighter jets can really only handle about 13 G's before the wings get ripped off," he said.

https://www.tpr.org/science-technology/ ... -phenomena

It seems (even though this physicist calculated acceleration) no serious academics will study it. If it's something we made requiring multiple breakthroughs, it should be explainable. However, perhaps actual scientists have a fear of ridicule (like that episode of Big Bang Theory where Koothrapalli makes a throwaway comment on aliens https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6674728/).


Several Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) encountered by military, commercial, and civilian aircraft have been reported to be structured craft that exhibit ‘impossible’ flight characteristics. We consider a handful of well-documented encounters, including the 2004 encounters with the Nimitz Carrier Group off the coast of California, and estimate lower bounds on the accelerations exhibited by the craft during the observed maneuvers. Estimated accelerations range from almost 100g to 1000s of gs with no observed air disturbance, no sonic booms, and no evidence of excessive heat commensurate with even the minimal estimated energies. In accordance with observations, the estimated parameters describing the behavior of these craft are both anomalous and surprising. The extreme estimated flight characteristics reveal that these observations are either fabricated or seriously in error, or that these craft exhibit technology far more advanced than any known craft on Earth. In many cases, the number and quality of witnesses, the variety of roles they played in the encounters, and the equipment used to track and record the craft favor the latter hypothesis that these are indeed technologically advanced craft. The observed flight characteristics of these craft are consistent with the flight characteristics required for interstellar travel, i.e., if these observed accelerations were sustainable in space, then these craft could easily reach relativistic speeds within a matter of minutes to hours and cover interstellar distances in a matter of days to weeks, proper time.

https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/21/10/939

theoretically they could have traveled from, um, a galaxy far far away.

this goes into all those other theories about how we're like fish in a bowl, or we're not that interesting, but a few "beings" maybe went by and looked at us for a moment, etc. lol.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:40 am

With the UAP, maybe the idea is we see the "3d shadow" of something that obeys the (not yet known) laws of physics in 10-11 dimensions.


Those 11 dimensions --if they exist according to superstring theory-- would be "compactified" and tiny. We wouldn't experience them; rather, they would produce our experience of a 3D+1 universe.

I have no problem imagining that some alien civilization could find a way to manipulate dark (unexplained) energy. I'm saying that aliens would have to solve the same physical problems that humans have. The main reason we even imagine that there are aliens is because of our understanding of physics.

I'm interested in aliens only as much as they can interact with humans. If I don't know where they came from, I can't speculate on their mode of travel. For me, believing in extra-terrestrial visitors is fine, but it doesn't do or prove anything. It doesn't explain what people have seen. We can't understand if we don't know; so, all we have are attempts at explanations.

Otoh, I think we know a lot about them, if they're here. For ex., they're not interested in announcing themselves or have been trying, but can't. Um, they're capable of interstellar travel, they can probably figure out electro-magnetic communication systems. Btw, some radio waves were recently monitored coming from the center of our galaxy. Anyway, as advanced as they would have to be, they clearly haven't tried to destroy the earth and enslave mankind. Unlike human societies --who have spacecraft-- have historically behaved. Don't get me wrong. I think aliens would be a great thing for the earth.:)
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby vadaga on Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:42 am

I do wonder what about air resistance for such devices. Wouldnt one be able to hear them if they are travelling at high speeds (sonic boom etc.)?
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Giles on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:13 am

As regards resisting extreme G-forces through acceleration:
An 'alien' interstellar travel vessel would not necessarily need to be crewed by semi-squishy organic beings with even a remote resemblance to our bodies. If they have the technology/ability to travel efficiently between stars, then they would almost certainly also have the ability to create artificial intelligence and/or to transfer their own 'minds' or similar to an inorganic substrate. Meaning that any fast-moving UFOs that might possibly exist could be controlled or 'crewed' by what we might call 'computers' -- although in practice we might recognize these as having true intelligence.
So pulling a few thousand Gs would be no problem if your crew is contained in a diamond substrate or other 'computronium' engineered to handle such forces.

--> This isn't really my own thinking: I'm taking the basic idea from the 'Router' chapter of Accelerando by Charles Stross. Which I can heartily recommend - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando - and indeed the same goes for much of Stross' work.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:15 am

vadaga wrote:I do wonder what about air resistance for such devices. Wouldnt one be able to hear them if they are travelling at high speeds (sonic boom etc.)?


Good question. Often the argument is that they can defy physics and can travel without moving "air" molecules out of the way. Otoh, we (humans and otherwise) use air resistance to travel through the air.

My wild theory is that it's not possible to avoid air resistance "and" be visible. Anything that moves will displace the molecules in between. Fast or slow, it'd have to happen. So, to your point, if it was seen, it should have been heard.

If they could move at near light speed, in the atmosphere, it raises a whole new set of questions. For anything traveling at that speed, time relative to us is standing still. Light (photons) are timeless; for them, there is only an instant. So, imagine you're riding in one of these alien ships at near light speed. For you, time passes very slowly. For us earthlings, however, centuries may be passing --while you are right there all the time. Thing is, you and everything in your ship would have to be massless --but, you would be soundless, too.
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Re: Theories (wild conjecture) on the UAP

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:28 am

@Giles, agreed, nothing says that there would be organic beings on these UAPs. Any extra-terrestrial civilization outside our solar system will meet Voyager first. However, even artificially intelligent robots will have to deal with the sheer vastness of the universe. Shucks, just the galaxy. For ex

The galaxy in the image is a reconstruction of the Milky Way, if it were about 110,000 light-years in diameter (more recent research suggests it's even bigger than that).

The itsy bitsy blue dot is how far our radio signals have travelled from Earth - a diameter of about 200 light-years.


Image
https://www.sciencealert.com/images/201 ... dcasts.jpg
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