What is woke anyway

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What is woke anyway

Postby emptycloud on Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:29 am

I recently watched this and found it enlightening. (I was in a traffic jam at the time)

trigger alert it has Peterson's in it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7iXtHTVtI

Rich
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:30 am

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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:01 pm

I guess it's never too late to fall down the Alternative Right/Intellectual Dork Web rabbit hole?
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby emptycloud on Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:34 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:


the problem with philosophers is that they are, like philosophy, a waste of time..

I believe Wittgenstein said as much in his later work.

I notice Dr Peterson has left comments in the comment section ( where else ) of the philosophers video post. worth a glance..

you might like this essay, if philosophy is your bag..

https://faculty.fiu.edu/~harrisk/Paper% ... 20time.htm

yours soon to be locked (cancelled) thread.

Richard
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:40 pm

Here's a fun game: Who said it? Jordan Peterson or Baron Harkonnen from Dune?
https://qz.app.do/who-said-it-jordan-pe ... -harkonnen

I scored 5/10
Last edited by oragami_itto on Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:27 pm

emptycloud wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:


the problem with philosophers is that they are, like philosophy, a waste of time..

I believe Wittgenstein said as much in his later work.

I notice Dr Peterson has left comments in the comment section ( where else ) of the philosophers video post. worth a glance..

you might like this essay, if philosophy is your bag..

https://faculty.fiu.edu/~harrisk/Paper% ... 20time.htm

yours soon to be locked (cancelled) thread.

Richard


Got you. So, you quote a philosopher to dismiss philosophy in defense of a guy who tries to write philosophy and gets dunked on by actual philosophers. Well done.

And yes, I have seen JP's responses. Have you seen the responses to the response? Total shred fest, but you'd have to get it to get it.



As for your whining about being canceled, well, it's right on cue.

Sad to watch the real-time disintegration of intelligence due to algorithm victimhood.
Last edited by Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby greytowhite on Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:27 pm

Maybe this has something to do with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YdpvnwtGc
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby yeniseri on Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:42 pm

The above exerps are incapable of comprehending what "woke" is because of a lack of certain life experiences that gave birth to the word in the first palce.
For the above descriptive, woke is as it is perceived as opposed to the experinece of it meaning it misses the original intent and even intuition of what it has become.

As an immigrant to the shores of US AMerica, I realize that alot of the bullshit that we call freedom in USA has been a joke but the recipients of that "negative freedom" have surpassed the intent of projection of it.
My thought process is of the French ( a beautiful people ??? ;D ) and their talk of liberte, fraternite e egalite but when confronted by the Haitian exposition of that reality of true revolution, they fell short on all fonts.
And many were incapable of understanding that concept in their fine coiffered establishment of luxury, pristine presence (clothes, gold, etc) while enjoying their cake but still incapapble of seeing the contempt of their bane and immoral behaviours while being surprised and clueless that the rabble would want their "heads in a basket"

Woke has now become negative in those quarters who seek to bring back the days of yore, Confererate flags and nooses as expressed by the multitudes on the January 6th Insurrection and now they pretend it was only a garden party
Last edited by yeniseri on Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:23 pm

The problem with "woke" is that it doesn't make any sense until it's pinned down to a single issue. Anyway, where I agree with the anti-woke people is that there are too many zealots who are against something without even trying to understand. And, there are too many people who take offense on other people's behalf.

Anyway, I think comedians should be allowed to tell offensive jokes. Otoh, I think everyone should have the right to vote. Oh yeah, "woke" people seem to be in favor of gay rights. This is often taken as them being in favor of homosexuality. And, that's the key point. Gays were discriminated against --legally and socially-- long before the term woke came along. In fact, woke people acknowledge and are aware of past and present discrimination (and violence) against gays and are offering support.

Most of the people who've been affected have been complaining for a long time. Indigenous peoples have; but, they're just now getting a bit of the attention they deserve. Woke people are in favor of that. Of course, that doesn't mean the unwoke aren't. That's my point. The issue has to be pinned down, not labeled. That way there's a good chance for agreement.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby vadaga on Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:59 am

I got 7/10 on the Peterson vs. Harkonnen test.

AFA Peterson, I think this is all that needs to be said about him
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby emptycloud on Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:19 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
emptycloud wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:


the problem with philosophers is that they are, like philosophy, a waste of time..

I believe Wittgenstein said as much in his later work.

I notice Dr Peterson has left comments in the comment section ( where else ) of the philosophers video post. worth a glance..

you might like this essay, if philosophy is your bag..

https://faculty.fiu.edu/~harrisk/Paper% ... 20time.htm

yours soon to be locked (cancelled) thread.

Richard


Got you. So, you quote a philosopher to dismiss philosophy in defense of a guy who tries to write philosophy and gets dunked on by actual philosophers. Well done.

And yes, I have seen JP's responses. Have you seen the responses to the response? Total shred fest, but you'd have to get it to get it.



As for your whining about being canceled, well, it's right on cue.

Sad to watch the real-time disintegration of intelligence due to algorithm victimhood.


Hi Ian

If I am walking down a path and I meet a man coming in the opposite direction looking like shit, and he tells me that the journey I am going on is futile,to turn back, that he is the voice of experience. If that man so happens to be Wittgenstein, then it is appropriate to paraphrase his warning about the futility of philosophy and take it on board. Common sense.

All philosophical problems are either common sense or nonsense. Which brings us to the philosopher in the video posted, he is talking nonsense not common sense.

As for Peterson I guess the question might be, has he had a positive effect on people overall. Not whether he is philosophically or intellectually profound or right (no pun intended), but is there evidence that he has been useful in society. It would seem and I could be wrong that he has had a tremendously positive effect on many, primarily but not exclusively young men. He has put some common sense into them and not more philosophical nonsense, the infamous "tidy your room" mantra, go and do something useful and so on. Easy enough to do, if you were brought up in a good enough house hold, though these simple instructions are often sniggered at by self referential intelligent people.

Anyway back to what is wokeness and to hell with philosophical nonsense..

yours still unlocked and unwhining at this point

Rich
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:43 am

My thought process is of the French ( a beautiful people ??? ;D ) and their talk of liberte, fraternite e egalite but when confronted by the Haitian exposition of that reality of true revolution, they fell short on all fonts.


Great example. Remember when Marie Antoinette (allegedly) said "Let them eat cake" when she saw the French peasants? That was her lack of "woke" --a failure to recognize or acknowledge the problem, or closing her eyes to it.

Revolutions can be useful analogies. The US revolution was a protest against perceived injustices (allegedly) based on the premise that all men were created equal and endowed with certain "inalienable" rights. Fine, and "all men" and women felt the same way --(even the Brits, who continued to argue that the King was better, even if he was nuts). Yet, liberty and equality weren't given to everyone after the Revolution. Ok, 41 of the 56 signers of the DoI owned slaves; but, was the Declaration and them "woke" --to the Brits. More to my point, there were many people who recognized the contradiction and wanted to do something about it. They were the abolitionists, anti-slavery, and women's suffrage people. To be clear, women and the enslaved did not need to be woke (i.e., see the problem). The term applies to their supporters who do see the problem.

Woke always meant "eyes open." It's not a philosophical or political term created in a classroom; it's a street term that was used to describe someone who was politically aware. For ex., those who knew about the Tulsa massacre aopt to those who didn't. But, the term became adopted by teens to describe stuff they knew about that their parents didn't or didn't care about.

And, after all that, I just went to the wiki 'duh.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:55 am

The anti-woke rhetoric is literally just reactionary reflex. Of course they don't want people to be familiar with the genocide and brutality of their government. Of course they don't want marginalized groups to be aware of their situation and able to articulate it.

So they spread propaganda to make working for systemic change seem like a vice, and the proletariat eats it up like sandwiches.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:19 am

Hi Ian

If I am walking down a path and I meet a man coming in the opposite direction looking like shit, and he tells me that the journey I am going on is futile,to turn back, that he is the voice of experience. If that man so happens to be Wittgenstein, then it is appropriate to paraphrase his warning about the futility of philosophy and take it on board. Common sense.




Anyway back to what is wokeness and to hell with philosophical nonsense..


Again, the first problem you have here is that you are claiming philosophy is nonsense but you started the thread by posting philosophy (of a sort). Peterson thinks of himself as a philosopher, and his only serious work was largely a work of philosophy.

I also can tell that you haven't read much Wittgenstein, or at least you didn't get it. Have you read what he said about philosophy in the Tractatus and elsewhere? "Philosophy aims at the logical clarification of thoughts."

All philosophical problems are either common sense or nonsense. Which brings us to the philosopher in the video posted, he is talking nonsense not common sense.


If you are talking about Peterson, I completely agree. Of course, you are not. And so, I repeat: you have to get it to get it.

As for Peterson I guess the question might be, has he had a positive effect on people overall. Not whether he is philosophically or intellectually profound or right (no pun intended), but is there evidence that he has been useful in society. It would seem and I could be wrong that he has had a tremendously positive effect on many, primarily but not exclusively young men. He has put some common sense into them and not more philosophical nonsense, the infamous "tidy your room" mantra, go and do something useful and so on. Easy enough to do, if you were brought up in a good enough house hold, though these simple instructions are often sniggered at by self referential intelligent people.


It's hard to quantify the good or bad of Peterson. What I can see is that he delivers a reactionary message that uses boogeymen to "other" groups of people he disagrees with. He also doesn't take the time to understand their points of view. Did you see his debate with Zizek on Marxism? Where he admits that he hasn't really read Marx? He pontificates about history but is historically ignorant. He tells folks to clean their room but doesn't clean his own. He says to fix yourself before fixing others but goes on speaking tours to make money while being so addicted to drugs that he had to disappear for two years.

I'd have no problem with Peterson if he stuck with his quasi-medical practice and self-help stuff and stayed out of reactionary politics and refrained from playing the guru. He is eminently unqualified.

I'm also unclear what you mean by self-referential in this case.

Finally, I will note that it is not surprising that someone who (perhaps unwittingly) posts anti-vax videos would want to create a binary where there is common sense and then philosophy. No room for thinking, self-critique (is that what you meant by self-reference? It's the opposite of how I usually use it), or rigor. Certainly no room for science if you want to stick to common sense.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby emptycloud on Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:47 pm

Hi Ian,

I'm not sure why you keep insisting I posted an anti vaxx video. I guess if you keep insisting then it will seem like I did. Strange. As you know I am incapable of talking about philosophy because it's nonsense, although I am aware some people take nonsense seriously. I'm sorry I brought up the subject.

I don't think of Peterson a philosopher, I see him wrapped up in this thing called woke and I also wonder if he is useful to society or not. I came across him from a friend for whom I would say that yes, Peterson has done him good. I don't know if its typical but he has moved on from Peterson and is into other things.

I have no skin in the game with Peterson, but I do think it is little a churlish to say Peterson was addicted to drugs, he was on prescribed medication. Oddly an active left wing friend of mine who seems to despise Peterson, cheered when he heard Peterson had a drug problem, he cheered less when he found out it was the same Benzo's he himself has been prescribed for the last 25 yrs.

I guess when arriving at a judgement of Peterson like you have, then we should consider which metrics and values we are using. By many standards he seems to be very lucky, he seems to be earning a wedge by tangibly helping millions lead better lives, he seems to be a devoted family man with loving kids, he certainly rubs shoulders with respectable and highly interesting people from a broad background. He is a hard worker and has a decent sense of humour. So I would say that he is trying to walk the talk.

Its a long time since I read Wittgenstein or any philosophers, although I did read " A history of the Stoics" recently as I had to grab a book quick before the library closed, it was ok.

I was at art school in the late 80s early 90's for 5years, had post modernism, Debord, etc till is dribbled out my ears. I committed myself to live as a Neo-situationist for too many years," theory is the enemy of praxis" was my battle cry.. so many messy years.. detourning the spectacle. I find it hard to believe that academics can still mention Debord with a straight face.

I tried to watch Zizeck and Peterson but life is too short.

Anyway back to woke... or not as I have used up my allotted internet time.. I have also failed to respond to all of your questions and queries, that's the way it goes..

Tomorrow I will discuss woke with teenagers and get their view on things...

Rich
Last edited by emptycloud on Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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