What is woke anyway

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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Steve James on Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:16 am

Books suggested to be banned to prevent wokeness.
https://static.texastribune.org/media/f ... 1635513476
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby everything on Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:48 am

probably on a tangent, but /r/selfawarewolves is pretty amazing/hilarious/dumbfounding/shocking/sad
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:15 pm

Hi Rich,

emptycloud wrote:Hi Ian,

I'm not sure why you keep insisting I posted an anti vaxx video. I guess if you keep insisting then it will seem like I did. Strange. As you know I am incapable of talking about philosophy because it's nonsense, although I am aware some people take nonsense seriously. I'm sorry I brought up the subject.

Rich


Well, I point it out because that's what you did and I saw a direct link between vaccine skepticism and antiwokeness. You claiming it's not antivax doesn't make it so. Note that I'm not the only person who thought that. That should at least give cause for thought.

I don't think of Peterson a philosopher, I see him wrapped up in this thing called woke and I also wonder if he is useful to society or not. I came across him from a friend for whom I would say that yes, Peterson has done him good. I don't know if its typical but he has moved on from Peterson and is into other things.


I suppose we might have different definitions of philosophy/philosopher. That's fine, and we should have hashed that out a while ago. But, it's hard to take too seriously the stance that "philosophy is nonsense."

I have no reason to doubt your annecdote, or that Peterson has helped some people. I know people who have been radicalized by him. So, how do we reconcile this? My guess would be that we don't even agree on what help and harm are. You might think it's good to deny people's identities or plights, or that it is at least less bad than denying your own individual sovereignty.

I have no skin in the game with Peterson, but I do think it is little a churlish to say Peterson was addicted to drugs, he was on prescribed medication. Oddly an active left wing friend of mine who seems to despise Peterson, cheered when he heard Peterson had a drug problem, he cheered less when he found out it was the same Benzo's he himself has been prescribed for the last 25 yrs.


I certainly hope you wouldn't be trying to project the meanspiritedness of your friend onto me. My point was not to delight in Peterson's suffering, but to point out that I don't think he takes his own advice too seriously, and we shouldn't either.

I guess when arriving at a judgement of Peterson like you have, then we should consider which metrics and values we are using.


I completely agree, but we apparently have completely different values. Fame and wealth in and of themselves are not things I hold in high esteem.

By many standards he seems to be very lucky, he seems to be earning a wedge by tangibly helping millions lead better lives, he seems to be a devoted family man with loving kids, he certainly rubs shoulders with respectable and highly interesting people from a broad background. He is a hard worker and has a decent sense of humour.


Sure, but not by my standards. Or some of his colleagues and former friends. I also don't agree that he is tangibly helping millions--rather the opposite. He also rubs shoulders with a very small group of like-minded people who are for the most part also doing harm on a large scale.

Its a long time since I read Wittgenstein or any philosophers, although I did read " A history of the Stoics" recently as I had to grab a book quick before the library closed, it was ok.


???

I was at art school in the late 80s early 90's for 5years, had post modernism, Debord, etc till is dribbled out my ears. I committed myself to live as a Neo-situationist for too many years," theory is the enemy of praxis" was my battle cry.. so many messy years.. detourning the spectacle. I find it hard to believe that academics can still mention Debord with a straight face.


I hear a lot of cliches about postmodernists from you, but no sign that you actually understood any of it. Anyway, it's hard to imagine meaningful praxis without theory (yi before li).

I tried to watch Zizeck and Peterson but life is too short.


Fair enough, although it's a great example of Peterson's startling ignorance on display.


Tomorrow I will discuss woke with teenagers and get their view on things...


Well, hopefully they have diverse opinions and the discussion will lead them to think deeply and not make up their minds about too much too soon.

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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby yeniseri on Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:41 pm

I saw this some time ago and it keeps coming up on my page and it is as follows:

People will notice the change in your attitude towards them
but are usually incapable of noticing their own behaviour that made you change!


The nutshell. as it be...
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:59 am

On Jordan Peterson and Woke:

Jordan Peterson is a prolific content creator across many mediums. I've watched many tens of hours of his lectures and read much of Maps of Meaning. So, I hope I can be forgiven for having forgotten a few important points about JP and his thoughts on Wokeness.

Peterson is openly dismissive, hostile, and derisive towards activism.

Peterson doesn't believe in systemic racism (or any form of privilege, especially white privilege).

Peterson is against gay marriage. His reasoning, at least in one instance, is that if gay marriage is supported by neo-Marxists, then he is against it. Um, okay? Pretty petulant.

So, of course this guy is against "wokeness." He is at best a reactionary conservative curmudgeon looking to cash in on transphobic and other facets of the culture wars.

For examples of the "Peterson is-isms" see the following:

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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Quigga on Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:49 am

Yes, I'm defending Peterson right here. I don't think he deserves as much hate as people give him. Or any hate at all, for that matter. Guy is literally in tears about how he wants to help young people. Being a male himself who struggled in his youth, he obviously relates to this group a bit more. I also suspect there was at least one case of severe alcoholism and suicide in his immediate group of trusted / loved ones. He's more intelligent and studied harder than I ever will, probably. Harvard isn't the same thing it was in the past, sure, but who can claim to have visited such a prestigious institution. He admits to his own flaws and vulnerablities. He admits that he hates large interviews where he has to act in a confrontative manner, where opinions ABOUT data clash. Everyone will consider different data to true, so that's quite a fruitless discussion to begin with. However, he has been cited many times by other research personell in social studies (don't ask me for a list, I don't have it). Touring as much as he did and acting against his temperament predictably took a large hit on his health. He doesn't act macho, he doesn't act like he's in control of it all or superior than others. He also admits he doesn't have THE solution for all those problems facing us today. Also, he never claimed to be a bulwark of unwavering success with each and every step in life. He simply presents his philosophy and his concerns with our zeitgeit.

Ian, I don't know how much you want to demonize him to not see the good in what he's saying. Maybe you're triggered way too quickly by underlying emotional issues and the mental step back to view issues from both sides is just too big for you in this turmoil. Maybe you're just not as smart as you think. Maybe I'm the dumbass here. Anyway, if you claim to have ingested as much material as you have, I seriously can't see how you can picture him as a bad guy? Or even as someone with conscious evil intentions? I'm actually interested, I want to know why you dislike him so much.

'Peterson is openly dismissive, hostile, and derisive towards activism.'


He certainly doesn't support the naive point of view that a mob of people is going to change a lot all on it's own, especially today. I admit he comes across as a rather anxious and fearful person sometimes. One point regarding the futility of naive activism or wokism is - why don't you come up with a better system? Complaining is easy. Making changes that don't disrupt the status quo too much and allow all kinds of people equal chance to follow these is not so easy. And this system we have, with all it's flaws yet to be uncovered and fixed, is the best we ever had. Period. I'd maybe prefer living as a hunter and gatherer in an actual tribe than today. Global wealth has never been higher (or maybe ancient civilizations?). If you're born anywhere in or even near the West, you're in the top 1% of rich people. An income above 30.000 dollars annualy gets you in that bracket. Isn't that insane?

Nobody's saying that everything is perfect, far from it. I personally believe in some degree of systemic racism, the average person is too stupid and too much of a dick for that not to be the case. Also some police body cam vids are enough proof for me that we need to work on bettering communication between ethnicities / races from ALL sides of the table.You can't change what happened in the past, so resentment is useless. I could vomit everytime Germany's leader bow down for yet another Holocaust ceremony. It's enough. People feeling guilty even though they weren't even alive, or even 12 years of age when those 100% admittedly horrible things happened. Ridiculous. If it helps the close persons of surivors to move on, ok, I can see the usefulness. Most directly affected people should be dead by now, though.

And opinions on BLM protests and Kyle Rittenhouse are enough to foster internal chaos, civil disorder, mental cancer in a nation. Sad. Or rather good. It's comforting to see people viciously standing up for each other and standing up for what they believe is right. Unfortunately many people stand up too quickly, when they should be sitting down and think things through more instead.

Or add a couple hundred hours of insight meditaion to gain a much more informed view about yourself, about the structure of belief systems, about hierarchies, about order and chaos, about life in general... and maybe then stand up and speak, act, even lead others maybe.

I personally think the BLM protests were successfully hijacked by looters and rioters. The movement has some valid points, but their spokespersons made quite a fool of themselves when they didn't all condone violence, theft, destruction of small businessess, civil unrest, etc. But that's what you get when you start a highly emotionally driven political movement.

Peterson doesn't believe in systemic racism (or any form of privilege, especially white privilege).


Yes, he does. He just thinks people shouldn't feel guilty about it. Which, ironically, always comes together in a bundle. 'You're priviliged, so you HAVE to feel bad. In general. But especially for others that have much less than you! Shame!' - which is just bullshit. No one HAS to do anything today, except eat shit die. Everyone is free. Freedom is our highest value. Yes, even the freedom to not be your highest self across the board, gasp. Forcing people into belief systems has always been a grave error.

Also one should be able to argue about just how deep this systemic racism is supposed to be. When I hear people complain about their deceased older relatives being slaves and thus not having been able to buy property, not being able to get the wealth accumulation snowball starting I could vomit. I haven't even eaten yet! Well, sorry, my grand-grand-pops also wasn't a billionaire. Now I''m just a regular guy living in a super rich Western society that has been established and developed over hundreds of years, providing me with unimaginable benefits. Like toilets and heating. WAAAAH WHERE ARE MY TRILLION DOLLARS WITHOUT EFFORT.

I agree that btw we should raise taxes on the super, ultra, mega rich by just 1 or 2 percent. Or just start to make them pay the taxes they're actually supposed to pay. That would give enough physical fuel to solve almost any problem we have today. Only foolish people would think that this group of people is to blame for all that is wrong today............... I can't wait until these socipathic asses get their proper judgment. The problem is that the first to act out of line will get devoured by the rest of the rich, like a pool of ravenously hungry sharks eating themselves. So they're not that incentvized to act in a benovelent way. Not disturb the balance of the force, you must! Some people argue Earth was never meant to be utopia. And there's a lot of truth in that. Let's see how far they can push civilization this time around.

Peterson is against gay marriage. His reasoning, at least in one instance, is that if gay marriage is supported by neo-Marxists, then he is against it. Um, okay? Pretty petulant.


I can imagine him saying something like that. I myself am against gay 'marriage' as well. Why does it have to be marriage? Can't they have their own term for a bond of lifelong committments between one person with overwhelming masculine energy and one person with overwhelming feminine energy? Or their own church / sect / group of belief? Proper marriage is between a man and woman. I don't see any way around that. If I was gay, I'd start a movement for bringing into life a legal term that gives my partnership at least the same benefits as a Christian marriage. Maybe even more benefits, since I'm oppressed, lol! The forced and unnatural equalizing of factors that have a natural dynamic is doomed from the start, when talking about society level.

And if you don't agree with Neo-Marxists being just as bad as Neo-Nazis you're part of the problem, my friend.

Peterson also couldn't be less transphobic. Also, if you think he's doing what he's doing out of financial interest then you're a moron. Sorry. His first public appearance was when he talked about state-mandated language ( as in, forced from the top down on the people - which is really popular with radical Communists and Neo Nazis. In fact, I don't believe there are non-radical communists and neo-nazis) on campus. He risked destroying his entire career and brough great danger to himself and his family. If he just wanted money in a calm manner, he's more than smart enough to do so. He's also not a conservative...

Personally, I think Petersons world view is just too complex for you to understand. Yes, I mean that how I wrote it. Keep jerking that justice boner.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:24 am

Quigga wrote:Yes, I'm defending Peterson right here. I don't think he deserves as much hate as people give him. Or any hate at all, for that matter. Guy is literally in tears about how he wants to help young people. Being a male himself who struggled in his youth, he obviously relates to this group a bit more. I also suspect there was at least one case of severe alcoholism and suicide in his immediate group of trusted / loved ones. He's more intelligent and studied harder than I ever will, probably. Harvard isn't the same thing it was in the past, sure, but who can claim to have visited such a prestigious institution. He admits to his own flaws and vulnerablities. He admits that he hates large interviews where he has to act in a confrontative manner, where opinions ABOUT data clash. Everyone will consider different data to true, so that's quite a fruitless discussion to begin with. However, he has been cited many times by other research personell in social studies (don't ask me for a list, I don't have it). Touring as much as he did and acting against his temperament predictably took a large hit on his health. He doesn't act macho, he doesn't act like he's in control of it all or superior than others. He also admits he doesn't have THE solution for all those problems facing us today. Also, he never claimed to be a bulwark of unwavering success with each and every step in life. He simply presents his philosophy and his concerns with our zeitgeit.

Ian, I don't know how much you want to demonize him to not see the good in what he's saying. Maybe you're triggered way too quickly by underlying emotional issues and the mental step back to view issues from both sides is just too big for you in this turmoil. Maybe you're just not as smart as you think. Maybe I'm the dumbass here. Anyway, if you claim to have ingested as much material as you have, I seriously can't see how you can picture him as a bad guy? Or even as someone with conscious evil intentions? I'm actually interested, I want to know why you dislike him so much.

'Peterson is openly dismissive, hostile, and derisive towards activism.'


He certainly doesn't support the naive point of view that a mob of people is going to change a lot all on it's own, especially today. I admit he comes across as a rather anxious and fearful person sometimes. One point regarding the futility of naive activism or wokism is - why don't you come up with a better system? Complaining is easy. Making changes that don't disrupt the status quo too much and allow all kinds of people equal chance to follow these is not so easy. And this system we have, with all it's flaws yet to be uncovered and fixed, is the best we ever had. Period. I'd maybe prefer living as a hunter and gatherer in an actual tribe than today. Global wealth has never been higher (or maybe ancient civilizations?). If you're born anywhere in or even near the West, you're in the top 1% of rich people. An income above 30.000 dollars annualy gets you in that bracket. Isn't that insane?

Nobody's saying that everything is perfect, far from it. I personally believe in some degree of systemic racism, the average person is too stupid and too much of a dick for that not to be the case. Also some police body cam vids are enough proof for me that we need to work on bettering communication between ethnicities / races from ALL sides of the table.You can't change what happened in the past, so resentment is useless. I could vomit everytime Germany's leader bow down for yet another Holocaust ceremony. It's enough. People feeling guilty even though they weren't even alive, or even 12 years of age when those 100% admittedly horrible things happened. Ridiculous. If it helps the close persons of surivors to move on, ok, I can see the usefulness. Most directly affected people should be dead by now, though.

And opinions on BLM protests and Kyle Rittenhouse are enough to foster internal chaos, civil disorder, mental cancer in a nation. Sad. Or rather good. It's comforting to see people viciously standing up for each other and standing up for what they believe is right. Unfortunately many people stand up too quickly, when they should be sitting down and think things through more instead.

Or add a couple hundred hours of insight meditaion to gain a much more informed view about yourself, about the structure of belief systems, about hierarchies, about order and chaos, about life in general... and maybe then stand up and speak, act, even lead others maybe.

I personally think the BLM protests were successfully hijacked by looters and rioters. The movement has some valid points, but their spokespersons made quite a fool of themselves when they didn't all condone violence, theft, destruction of small businessess, civil unrest, etc. But that's what you get when you start a highly emotionally driven political movement.

Peterson doesn't believe in systemic racism (or any form of privilege, especially white privilege).


Yes, he does. He just thinks people shouldn't feel guilty about it. Which, ironically, always comes together in a bundle. 'You're priviliged, so you HAVE to feel bad. In general. But especially for others that have much less than you! Shame!' - which is just bullshit. No one HAS to do anything today, except eat shit die. Everyone is free. Freedom is our highest value. Yes, even the freedom to not be your highest self across the board, gasp. Forcing people into belief systems has always been a grave error.

Also one should be able to argue about just how deep this systemic racism is supposed to be. When I hear people complain about their deceased older relatives being slaves and thus not having been able to buy property, not being able to get the wealth accumulation snowball starting I could vomit. I haven't even eaten yet! Well, sorry, my grand-grand-pops also wasn't a billionaire. Now I''m just a regular guy living in a super rich Western society that has been established and developed over hundreds of years, providing me with unimaginable benefits. Like toilets and heating. WAAAAH WHERE ARE MY TRILLION DOLLARS WITHOUT EFFORT.

I agree that btw we should raise taxes on the super, ultra, mega rich by just 1 or 2 percent. Or just start to make them pay the taxes they're actually supposed to pay. That would give enough physical fuel to solve almost any problem we have today. Only foolish people would think that this group of people is to blame for all that is wrong today............... I can't wait until these socipathic asses get their proper judgment. The problem is that the first to act out of line will get devoured by the rest of the rich, like a pool of ravenously hungry sharks eating themselves. So they're not that incentvized to act in a benovelent way. Not disturb the balance of the force, you must! Some people argue Earth was never meant to be utopia. And there's a lot of truth in that. Let's see how far they can push civilization this time around.

Peterson is against gay marriage. His reasoning, at least in one instance, is that if gay marriage is supported by neo-Marxists, then he is against it. Um, okay? Pretty petulant.


I can imagine him saying something like that. I myself am against gay 'marriage' as well. Why does it have to be marriage? Can't they have their own term for a bond of lifelong committments between one person with overwhelming masculine energy and one person with overwhelming feminine energy? Or their own church / sect / group of belief? Proper marriage is between a man and woman. I don't see any way around that. If I was gay, I'd start a movement for bringing into life a legal term that gives my partnership at least the same benefits as a Christian marriage. Maybe even more benefits, since I'm oppressed, lol! The forced and unnatural equalizing of factors that have a natural dynamic is doomed from the start, when talking about society level.

And if you don't agree with Neo-Marxists being just as bad as Neo-Nazis you're part of the problem, my friend.

Peterson also couldn't be less transphobic. Also, if you think he's doing what he's doing out of financial interest then you're a moron. Sorry. His first public appearance was when he talked about state-mandated language ( as in, forced from the top down on the people - which is really popular with radical Communists and Neo Nazis. In fact, I don't believe there are non-radical communists and neo-nazis) on campus. He risked destroying his entire career and brough great danger to himself and his family. If he just wanted money in a calm manner, he's more than smart enough to do so. He's also not a conservative...

Personally, I think Petersons world view is just too complex for you to understand. Yes, I mean that how I wrote it. Keep jerking that justice boner.


Maybe I'm the dumbass here.


Well, that's obvious.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:50 am

Harvard isn't the same thing it was in the past, sure, but who can claim to have visited such a prestigious institution.


Did you go to Harvard?
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Quigga on Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:22 am

No, I just can't stand when a good guy like Peterson is being dragged through the mud. That's all.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:36 am

Can anyone provide a Jordan Peterson interview where he doesn't sound crazy?

This one is typical of the ones I've read.
https://amp.ft.com/content/7d2e6802-604 ... 1af256df68
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Finny on Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:24 pm

Quigga wrote:I myself am against gay 'marriage' as well.


Why? Why would you be bothered by it at all? Are you gay?

Quigga wrote:Why does it have to be marriage? Can't they have their own term for a bond of lifelong committments between one person with overwhelming masculine energy and one person with overwhelming feminine energy?


Who said anything about 'energy'? Why would you feel the need to use that kind of language? Why can't marriage just be - as it always has been - a commitment between two people to live together?

Why would 'they' need 'their own' term? One already exists - marriage. Why make up a random word when one already fits?


Quigga wrote:Or their own church / sect / group of belief? Proper marriage is between a man and woman.


No it isn't - at least not in your country, my country, or the rest of the developed world. What makes you think you are in a position to dictate what's 'proper' to others?

Why should people have to leave their church / sect / group of belief because of their sexuality? Seriously - can you explain your reasoning?


Quigga wrote:I don't see any way around that. If I was gay, I'd start a movement for bringing into life a legal term that gives my partnership at least the same benefits as a Christian marriage. Maybe even more benefits, since I'm oppressed, lol! The forced and unnatural equalizing of factors that have a natural dynamic is doomed from the start, when talking about society level.


You don't see any way around what? Marriage being 'proper between a man and woman'? Well... you could just.. not arbitrarily declare that, for one.

The reality is simple:

If you have no problem with gay people having 'a legal term' that gives their partnership the 'same benefits as a Christian marriage'

THEN REJOICE YE FAITHFUL!!

It exists, and has already happened. The term is 'marriage'. So it turns out you are in fact in favour of gay marriage. Congrats Quigga, consider yourself woke.

And for what it's worth.. non Christians are (gasp) also allowed to be married. But it seems you're ok with 'them' co-opting 'your' legal term?
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby GrahamB on Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

Jordan Peterson is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
I could be wrong.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby emptycloud on Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:08 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Hi Rich,

emptycloud wrote:Hi Ian,

I'm not sure why you keep insisting I posted an anti vaxx video. I guess if you keep insisting then it will seem like I did. Strange. As you know I am incapable of talking about philosophy because it's nonsense, although I am aware some people take nonsense seriously. I'm sorry I brought up the subject.

Rich


Well, I point it out because that's what you did and I saw a direct link between vaccine skepticism and antiwokeness. You claiming it's not antivax doesn't make it so. Note that I'm not the only person who thought that. That should at least give cause for thought.

I don't think of Peterson a philosopher, I see him wrapped up in this thing called woke and I also wonder if he is useful to society or not. I came across him from a friend for whom I would say that yes, Peterson has done him good. I don't know if its typical but he has moved on from Peterson and is into other things.


I suppose we might have different definitions of philosophy/philosopher. That's fine, and we should have hashed that out a while ago. But, it's hard to take too seriously the stance that "philosophy is nonsense."

I have no reason to doubt your annecdote, or that Peterson has helped some people. I know people who have been radicalized by him. So, how do we reconcile this? My guess would be that we don't even agree on what help and harm are. You might think it's good to deny people's identities or plights, or that it is at least less bad than denying your own individual sovereignty.

I have no skin in the game with Peterson, but I do think it is little a churlish to say Peterson was addicted to drugs, he was on prescribed medication. Oddly an active left wing friend of mine who seems to despise Peterson, cheered when he heard Peterson had a drug problem, he cheered less when he found out it was the same Benzo's he himself has been prescribed for the last 25 yrs.


I certainly hope you wouldn't be trying to project the meanspiritedness of your friend onto me. My point was not to delight in Peterson's suffering, but to point out that I don't think he takes his own advice too seriously, and we shouldn't either.

I guess when arriving at a judgement of Peterson like you have, then we should consider which metrics and values we are using.


I completely agree, but we apparently have completely different values. Fame and wealth in and of themselves are not things I hold in high esteem.

By many standards he seems to be very lucky, he seems to be earning a wedge by tangibly helping millions lead better lives, he seems to be a devoted family man with loving kids, he certainly rubs shoulders with respectable and highly interesting people from a broad background. He is a hard worker and has a decent sense of humour.


Sure, but not by my standards. Or some of his colleagues and former friends. I also don't agree that he is tangibly helping millions--rather the opposite. He also rubs shoulders with a very small group of like-minded people who are for the most part also doing harm on a large scale.

Its a long time since I read Wittgenstein or any philosophers, although I did read " A history of the Stoics" recently as I had to grab a book quick before the library closed, it was ok.


???

I was at art school in the late 80s early 90's for 5years, had post modernism, Debord, etc till is dribbled out my ears. I committed myself to live as a Neo-situationist for too many years," theory is the enemy of praxis" was my battle cry.. so many messy years.. detourning the spectacle. I find it hard to believe that academics can still mention Debord with a straight face.


I hear a lot of cliches about postmodernists from you, but no sign that you actually understood any of it. Anyway, it's hard to imagine meaningful praxis without theory (yi before li).

I tried to watch Zizeck and Peterson but life is too short.


Fair enough, although it's a great example of Peterson's startling ignorance on display.


Tomorrow I will discuss woke with teenagers and get their view on things...


Well, hopefully they have diverse opinions and the discussion will lead them to think deeply and not make up their minds about too much too soon.

Cheers, Ian


Hi Ian,

I love that line - "it's hard to take too seriously the stance that "philosophy is nonsense."

It was early on in my art practice that I began to smell a rat with the post modern racket my lectures were peddling. In response i developed a practice which was later articulated as Proletariat Post-modernism or working class post modernism, as you could imagine my tutors didn't like this. It was a direct kind of practice, a kind of art/life blending. Another working title for practice was "Total Kunst" again this caused problems as it primary aim was an assault on bourgeoise values, and my tutors and fellow students were the primary targets.

One agenda I put forward was/is, that the idea of a break between modernism and post modernism is nonsense. Post modernism is clearly a continuation of modernism, just a reversal of polarity. Two side of a coin, or magnet. To step back and see them as one thing totally alters the script. My tutors and fellow students got pretty defensive with this position, especially when it was framed objectively as a working class post modernism.

So you may be correct that I do not understand post modernism, however I engaged the post modernists in a culture battle and they crumpled behind a pile of theories and corduroy. The project continues to this day..

I thought Paterson had quite diverse contacst but then I haven't delved deeply into his output , a standout one for me was his discussion with a psychedelic researcher, I thought Patersons pro use of psychedelics was refreshing, I liked his light hearted interview with Wim Hof, and that he debated with Zizeck confirmed for me that he has some varied input going on. Not exactly a narrow minded bunch of thinkers.

What else, can't think, too much pizza...

As for wokeness, I'm not anti wokeness as I am still trying to understand it. I am pro objectivity. Like its only women who have abortions not people. Or that post modernism is still modernism.

At my son's school they teach that gender is not fixed to 5 years olds. I personally think it unusual to teach 5yr olds that gender is fluid. He brought the book home, its called "Brenda is not a sheep", possibly the creepiest book my tax money has ever paid for. It was about a wolf who identified as sheep. The book ends by telling the children that Brenda the wolf, never, ever really was a wolf. We watched some real wolves on YouTube and together put the book in the recycle bin.

I'm off to bed..

goodnight

Rich
Last edited by emptycloud on Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:08 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: What is woke anyway

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:45 pm

Re gay marriage, sure they can have civil unions and not a church wedding. But, the issue is that marriage have financial and other benefits, like taxes. It also allows one person to be permitted the privileges of a family member, such as inheriting property. Those are legal not religious benefits. Frankly, people who argue what rights gays have will make the same argument for women, others, and anyone who doesn't share the same religion. They'll call anyone who limits their rights a tyrant and yell Freedom!

I asked about Harvard because I wondered how you were sure it had changed. But, also because you seemed to suggest that Petersen working there was meaningful. Just curious.
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Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:43 pm

For evidence of the harm Peterson and his ilk perpetrate, one need look no further than Quigga. There is nowhere else such a bungled use of jargon could have come from. The level of ignorance on every subject he broached coupled with the open bigotry is pretty damning.
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