pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

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pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:30 pm

posting in OTT b/c trying to ask about NON-MA, NON-BGZ circle walking, nothing about Dong's MA influences or other MA experiences.

do you have some good links, other posts here, books, etc., only on the Taoist circle walking, non-MA related. on whatever those supposed monks Dong met supposedly did for meditation, qigong, whatnot that was not martial.

for example here's a random link from a google search https://www.internalartsinternational.c ... -nei-gong/

thanks a lot
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby yeniseri on Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:25 am

It has been stated that bapangzhang ;D ??? was a pre-baquazhang/baquaquan where circle walking was taken (borrowed!) from Daoist circles as a way to legitimize baqua! with the many CMA of the day.
This made the art more palateable for the masses and acceptance was certainly guaranteed despite the influence of IHoQuan (Boxer Rebeliion Era) and their parlour tricks that was promoted as part of a circus routine to "trick" the citizenry into cultural acceptance and politics of that era.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:32 am

Really interesting as a topic unto itself, but how about even before that?

Is there good material on the Daoist walking?
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Bao on Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:16 pm

As Sal Canzonieri already have explained, Dong’s Bagua was directly derived from a Shaolin set with drills using the exact same names as the bagua animals. The circle walking with the turnings resembles dueling footwork, which is logical as it’s a late system from a time when military warfare was already much too advanced for having any use of martial arts practice.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:42 pm

so the supposedly daoist monk walking for meditation/qigong/whatnot non-MA isn't a thing? or not really known?
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Quigga on Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:14 pm

If you want to go pre Daoist, you have to keep a few things in mind. Life was very different back then, we're talking 5-8000 years. Daoism slowly formed itself over time and is China's religious, philosophical, world-view heritage.

How did people live back then? Likely lots of villages, some nomads and hunter gatherers, a town or three. Nature was much stronger back then, more diverse and numerous creatures, plants. Bigger ones too.

Most people would have made similar experiences, including:

Witnessing death
Seeing an animal or person killed, ill, via accident struggle for their lives
Have experienced actual hunger and or thirst
Weather was a huge part of life
Most if not all were illiterate
Most people will have hunted and butchered
Their social customs are unknown to me
Have crafted various items
Fire was essential
Little distraction or conditioning
Lots of physical labor and intense experiences

Since life was so demanding, practicing more Yin stuff was the natural inclination. If you have good mobility and connection from a young age, then maintain it - all you need after a day's work is circulating, washing, loosening.

Yet practices were simpler, less formalized. IMO. More based on close nature observation. People were already quite in touch with the Way, not much if any practice needed.

IIRC, the Tai Chi symbol and Bagua one may not even have existed 5-8000 years ago, so circle walking may not even have been a term. It was Fuji, the supposed ancestor of all Chinese people, who established various things and is like Prometheus without the punishment part. He brought the first signs for language, taught about agriculture and grasped Tai Chi as a vehicle for balanced living.

Cultivation likely was much easier since the world wasn't poisoned yet, no medicines etc

Not many animals walk in circles. Some do. Fish. Or dragons. Maybe they lived physically back then, that would have been cool

As for fighting, most if not all of it would have been done with weapons and poisons/infections were serious threats. Example: Filipino blades were dipped in excrements that were left for months to ferment...
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Quigga on Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:31 pm

Also keep in mind the slow moving, standing, stalking during hunting. How different their senses were developed. Crazy to do with melee, throwing bows. Trapping, tracking, fishing, foraging.

Maybeee I'm engaging in the glorification of the past, but I think I'm not that far off.

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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Bao on Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:57 pm

everything wrote:so the supposedly daoist monk walking for meditation/qigong/whatnot non-MA isn't a thing? or not really known?


I don't believe that the presumed pre-bagua taoist circle walking exist. I've never found anything similar in the Daoist classics or in any academic paper or book about Daoist practice. If such a thing exist, then it should be a small, local and for that time very new Daoist sect with its own practice that has no historical connection to traditional Daoist practices. I strongly doubt it.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby greytowhite on Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:41 pm

I'm pretty sure it's more Buddhist than Daoist and the Chinese don't want to talk about how the assassin from the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom brought a Tibetan art to China and made it famous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuBj5zhVlE

https://traditionalartofnepal.com/shop/ ... r-thangka/
Last edited by greytowhite on Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:04 pm

Bao wrote:
everything wrote:so the supposedly daoist monk walking for meditation/qigong/whatnot non-MA isn't a thing? or not really known?


I don't believe that the presumed pre-bagua taoist circle walking exist. I've never found anything similar in the Daoist classics or in any academic paper or book about Daoist practice. If such a thing exist, then it should be a small, local and for that time very new Daoist sect with its own practice that has no historical connection to traditional Daoist practices. I strongly doubt it.


oh I never heard that it perhaps didn't exist (the local idea could also make sense I guess). in any case learning about it outside the bgz instruction doesn't seem feasible.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:45 pm

Quigga yeah didn’t mean pre Daoist but appreciate the long post and ideas.

Was just wondering what Dong may have learned if the stories were true.

OTOH it’s odd to try to walk a circle without thinking about things like footwork or throws or something.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Graculus on Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:57 pm

There are Taoist (folk?) rituals that involve quite a lot of walking round in circles. It's not really my area of interest, but I recall seeing one a couple of months ago online. Some judicious searching should yield some results. Scott Park Phillips has written on this, and even if you doubt his take on martial arts, you would probably find some useful info if you are looking into Daoist rituals.

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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:48 am

Graculus wrote:There are Taoist (folk?) rituals that involve quite a lot of walking round in circles. It's not really my area of interest, but I recall seeing one a couple of months ago online.


In probably every religious practice you can see people dancing around a fire place, a pole or a statue, worshiping their gods and deities. Everybody do this. So?

Now we need to connect one specific religious tradition to health exercises and martial arts. And we need to be able to trace a historical development in detail from the general to the specific. And then the transformation to Bagua.

What exact body movements and gestures can you see in Baguazhang that you can see in Daoist rituals? In what ritual do people move their feet as they were stepping on a circle shaped line? You would need to break everything up in parts, detailed, and then find the equivalents in Daoist rituals that would need to have. geographical connection to Dong Haichuan as well. No one has done this, and no one has find any similarities of any details.

So everything people say about this is daoist rituals origin is baed on General assumptions. So general assumptions about Daoist origins because Baguazhang exercises is practiced walking in a circle is all what I have read so far. Those general assumptions are just not good enough.

Abut what we know is that there is a Shaolin set based on eight short drills with the exact same name as the Bagua animals.

... What the solution would be according to Occam is pretty obvious, IMO.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby everything on Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:16 pm

Hmmmm yes now I’m pretty convinced, too.

Oh well, it would’ve been cool if there were more info available.

The pakua journal article was great, though.
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Re: pre-bgz, non-MA taoist circle walking

Postby Bob on Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:44 pm

Not sure if these are valid citations but they reference Daoist circle walking

https://daoyinchuan.wordpress.com/2012/ ... e-walking/
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