Russia Ukraine Situation

[gzregorz]

- Ukraine has a US backed Nazi regime committing a cultural genocide against Russian minorities.

These are just facts, easy for anyone to confirm.

Please provide a source for this claim.

But the Ukrainian president is Jewish. How ironic...

FWIW, these Russians don't even know what they are doing in Ukraine. (Translation below video.)

https://m.worldstar.com/web/video.php?v ... 6r0dfaTNT7

As a US veteran I will say this and leave it at that there is no glory in invading Ukraine and if people wonder why there is a NATO then now they know why.

Putin was going to invade either way. If NATO had acknowledged Putin's request it would have meant he could invade without repercussions. Listen to Putin speech over 1 hour speech justifying the invasion where he says this has nothing to do with NATO.

I would to debate more but "been there done that" in the Russians are coming.

In which case when facts fail to make a point people use insults.

Spent time in Ukraine. Lovely country with lots of promise but not so much money pouring in which is why they wanted to break up with Putin and date the EU. I can't blame them.

Would anyone here care to be a blue collar worker struggling to survive in Putin's Russia where your vote means nothing because the opposition was poisoned?

Not going to debate further because I have spent time in Russia too and have seen it all with my own two eyes.

I feel for all involved because Ukraine will never surrender. Ukraine learned what happened when they put their guard down to their Russian brothers in 2014.

Going to a rally and fundraiser today to help Ukrainian refugees. Hope you do the same.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

It's ridiculous to say that Ukraine is a Nazi regime, even if there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (the US has a problem with white nationalist militias, too).

It's also ridiculous to say that something must be true because Putin said it in a prerecorded speech.

No one can say with certainty what Putin would or would not have done if the US and its allies hadn't been openly hostile to the Russian communists since sending troops into Russia in 1918. The US has since betrayed our promises to Russia many times, especially during the closing days of WWII. Then the US took credit for winning the war even though Russia did far more to defeat the Nazis and arguably just as much if not more than the US to force Japanese surrender.

[gzregorz]

Read the rest of this thread and as expected people are taking their aim at NATO. Let me remind people that in 1993 when the Soviet Union dissolved Russia agreed to respect the territory of Ukraine because for some reason that seems to be left out of these discussions.

NATO or no NATO the Putin is now sending in missles that suck the oxygen out of the air to kill the enemy. I think this blame the West while you are suffocating is just ridiculous. Putin has prepared for this moment his whole life and if you read his writings he calls the end of the Soviet Union the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

Unfortunately for Putin the Ukrainians have something to say about that. In some areas of Ukraine the elderly still remember when the Nazis came through.

Top Gun: Mystery Pilot Nicknamed "The Ghost Of Kyiv" Takes Down 6 Russian Jets By Himself!

https://m.worldstar.com/web/video.php?v ... NN5RqtO0QS

[gzregorz]

Three hours discussion, posted today. Lots of facts about the situation. Probably too advanced and nuanced for some simple minded people here though.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzzVhVbddhM

There is and was no ethnic cleansing in Ukraine. In fact Russians in Ukraine are asking Russian troops what the hell they are doing in Ukraine.

I have seen the insults already happening here so I am out because obviously the information you are receiving is telling you a different narrative.

As half breed of the indigenous people of the Pacific Islands and a native of these Amers before they were the Americas, I have traveled extensively in Ukraine and never experienced racism. Ukrainian cops are corrupt and hooligans are hooligans but organized ethnic cleansing in Ukraine? Sorry but a youtube video isn't enough to convert me. Seems if what you are saying was happening I would have had a taste.

[gzregorz]

Read the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in which Russia agrees to respect Ukraine's borders when the Soviet Union was dissolved.

My wife is organizing to help Ukrainian refugees in Poland. I will spend my time on that for now. As of now over 3,500 Russian soldiers are dead. I just don't see the point of engaging in online debates at this hour.

I appreciate all posts.

[Peacedog]

Reporting on the ground has the Russian forces looking more like a giant cluster f#@% than anything else. Troops running out of fuel, food and water. Apparently, a lot of conscripts were brought in and told they we going on an exercise. Hardly makes for soldiers that fight hard. Cell phones through the rank of Captain have been confiscated from line units.

Ukrainians may be able to force a strategic retreat in a week, or so, if they can hold on.

Putin does not appear to have forces to hold the country let alone the cash necessary to pay for it. So, it is more looking like his goal was to come in, seize the capital, execute the sitting president and install a puppet regime. That may well have failed at this point.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

Russia has a very large stockpile of tactical nukes. Would Putin drop one during a "strategic maneuver to the rear" if he cannot hold Kyiv? If he loses Ukraine, even at the cost of completely destroying the place, do the oligarchs let him stay in power over the embarrassment or does he get the Beria treatment?

Could get interesting real fast.....

[windwalker]

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses

“Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).

Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that

“not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that

if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” (See Document 6)

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

Not true, fake news ?

[origami_itto]

So Russia doesn't want anybody else joining NATO, and Ukraine is flush with natural resources, so they're trying to force a regime change friendly to their interests or failing that occupying the country?
And the rest of the world is doing fuck-all while an alleged superpower is invading a sovereign nation on a flimsy pretext?
The whole monk on a mountain thing just starts to make more and more sense the more things go on.

[windwalker]

So Russia doesn't want anybody else joining NATO, and Ukraine is flush with natural resources, so they're trying to force a regime change friendly to their interests or failing that occupying the country?
And the rest of the world is doing fuck-all while an alleged superpower is invading a sovereign nation on a flimsy pretext?
The whole monk on a mountain thing just starts to make more and more sense the more things go on.

Seems like there was an agreement that was kept until recently
or is the history "wrong"

Maybe those European countries involved in the agreement, are a little bit hesitant about getting involved because of the agreement. Ever wonder why they’re not taking the lead ?

The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification.

The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear

“that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’”

The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3

impairment of Soviet security interests

What part of "Soviet security interests "

Do some seem not to understand

[origami_itto]

The Soviets do not exist.
They have no security interests.
There are no Soviet borders.
Why does Russia believe NATO interests are inherently aligned against Russian interests?
Why does Russia believe its fear of NATO gives it the right to invade Ukraine?

[windwalker]

The Soviets do not exist.
They have no security interests.
There are no Soviet borders.
Why does Russia believe NATO interests are inherently aligned against Russian interests?
Why does Russia believe its fear of NATO gives it the right to invade Ukraine?

Haha

Why does the US still have an embargo on Cuba

What gives it the right to do so?

[origami_itto]

Don't avoid the question. Our evil doesn't justify their evil. Make it make sense.

[Peacedog]

I guess Elon's not so worried about the Russian market now.

Funny to see that he's doing more than a lot of governments.

https://news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-says-s ... &tsrc=twtr

And a decent assessment of what is happening on the ground.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... ebruary-26

[Quigga]

Even if you manage to achieve non dual states, you still live in a dual world. Until you pass, you will create karma. Accept that and find peace.

Much love to all

[Peacedog]

So far, the most serious thing being forwarded by Western nations.

Cutting the Russians out of SWIFT would destroy Russian bank's, and industry, ability to move money around internationally. A sanction that would actually hurt.

On the plus side, it would also start putting the world down the long road of crushing globalist aspirations of controlling all foreign governments economically. Which is why the usual suspects resisted this from the get go.

The world is rushing towards the neo-medievalist world order that 9/11 started.

Exciting.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us ... d=msedgntp

For an explanation of what that means....

https://www.ft.com/content/7a6613c7-f2f ... 867c9b8a0a