Russia Ukraine Situation

[Bob]

Sometimes being a "Free-Rider" is a more efficient and cost effective way to get your country's security - I think Trump tried to point this out with regard to NATO and Europe in general - I don't have a position on this assertion.

[windwalker]

Sometimes being a "Free-Rider" is a more efficient and cost effective way to get your country's security - I think Trump tried to point this out with regard to NATO and Europe in general - I don't have a position on this assertion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0

Germany has provoked outrage in some quarters after it offered to supply 5,000 military helmets to Ukraine to help it defend itself against a possible Russian invasion. About 100,000 Russian troops are believed to be on the border with Ukraine.

mmmm, military helmets....
yep that should do it..

[Bob]

That is the Free-Rider problem - regardless of the amount of contribution (or how little they make as is the case you cited) they get the same amount of defense protection as some other country who might contribute more - That was one issue raised regarding unequal contributions that member countries made to NATO to the point that maybe the US should not be a member of NATO and let Europe take care of its own defense needs and financing - again I don't have a position on this issue rather just trying to see it from as many angles as I can without a definitive judgement - circumambulating is what I engage in - I don't know if there is enough public information to take a strong position for or against the issues raised.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Good talk with John Mearshimer viz. leading Ukraine to take a hardline against Russia will lead to a bad result- seems this is what is happening.

I also like Stephen Walt and some other of the neorealists.

I think that George Kennan also made some comments on NATO expansion back in 1997 to the effect that

'something of the highest importance is at stake here. And perhaps it is not too late to advance a view that, I believe, is not only mine alone but is shared by a number of others with extensive and in most instances more recent experience in Russian matters. The view, bluntly stated, is that expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.'

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.html

yea, let's live our lives pandering to all the crazy bullies in the world instead.
NATO is a pact that is simply about backing each other against aggression.

do you believe the outcome changes in any way how a super powered Imperialist ultimately behaves towards his neighbours, that Putin wouldn't simply find whatever justification he needed to carry out his ideological fantasy?

please.

That's rich coming from Perfidious Albion and her outposts.

[wiesiek]

I leave those >kitchen talks< on the side, `cause it sets to high level for my taste,

examples given just proofs , that you even don`t know that you don`t know...

in situation as it is for today
have no spare time or will to dig in history
you may do it for yourself

[Bao]

They [Finland] need to decide whether
they should join NATO and protect their borders from possible Russian
invasion or obey Russia in her intentions to limit expansion of this military
alliance throughout Europe.

Don't you see a problem in this logic? Why do people always judge countries before they have even done something? Why punish countries for what they haven't done?

Why would Russian invade Finland? Russia hasn't had any problem with Finland. The situation with Finland is completely different compared to Ukraine. Why should Finland turn the back to its neighbor? Joining Nato and take side with the USA doesn't make sense.

[Bao]

Putin’s complete speech:

https://youtu.be/Yc43wHhb1Vc

[Bob]

Ask Finland - they are capable of speaking for themselves - their leadership made the pubic comments less than a week ago.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... -invasion/

https://yle.fi/news/3-12332089

[GrahamB]

My pleasure, Graham! I watched this way back then the year before matriculating there. Sorry I couldn't get the embedded link to work properly, but big ups to Bao for fixing that for me which will hopefully get more folks to check it out.

-Ian

I've been thinking a lot about that clip. It's great for the historical perspective, but I think it's a bit dated since it's from 2014. To fit the modern day it concentrates too much on "power" as being army movements, whereas since then we've seen how Russian intelligence can actively move to destabalise countries.

It could be argued that Russian elites put Trump in power in the US. They fund the Conservative party in the UK, and wash their dirty money through London, so directly fund Boris, and funded Vote Leave in 2015, they paid for Brexit, plus influence the electorate with social media posts. They cause fuel panics in places like Poland, and it's the same accounts that post anti-EU and anti-vax messages. And the same old saps in every country believe this lie of FREEDOM they are sold by the Russian elites. Ironic.

[wiesiek]

..."Unresolved issues from the past, starting to be resolved in the present..."
haha, windy,
you should carving this statement in stone, over the grave with historical knowledge of yours.

..."Damn, grow up pal. No one is supporting an invasion. I merely gave facts. I can support everything with serious sources..."
Bao,
I really appreciated your posts,( not necessary in this thread, dough )
Problem with the fact is similar to the "truth" problem, you know, there are 3 types of
the truth...

Somebody grown up in "western hemisphere" is very liable to something called >propaganda<, I don`t blame you, it is perfectly normal if you used to read '1" as 1,
not as 2 or maybe 3...

and
now,
I would ask you: do you had have relatives with tongues taring off by Ukrainians?

[Bob]

A very good read:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... sm/622902/


https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/new ... 914865001/

The pastor of Holy Ghost Ukrainian Catholic Church hasn’t been able to sleep much at night.

The Rev. Vsevolod Shevchuk, 40, known to Akron parishioners as “Father Sal,” is deeply troubled by the Russian invasion of his native Ukraine. He is worried about the safety of his relatives who still live there and he fears for the future of his home country.

On Thursday morning, he received a text message from his father, who was preparing to take cover in a bomb shelter in Kyiv as Russian troops neared the capital of Ukraine.

“If I can, I’m going to keep you updated,” his father wrote. “Please pray for us.”

Shevchuk has been doing just that. He has opened the Brown Street church to worshippers all day, celebrated the Divine Liturgy each morning and led a special rosary dedicated to peace in Ukraine.

The Rev. Vsevolod Shevchuk, pastor of Holy Ghost Ukrainian Catholic Church in Akron, prays Thursday evening with his son Yuriy, 10, during a special rosary for peace in Ukraine.
KAREN SCHIELY, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL
“We encourage people to come and pray with us and support us,” he said.

Shevchuk has been pastor of the Akron congregation since 2013. Holy Ghost is a Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Church in full communion with the worldwide Catholic Church.

Born in the western Ukrainian city of Stryi, he came to the United States at age 17, attended St. Basil’s Seminary in Stamford, Connecticut, and graduated from the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.

Initially here on a religious visa, he and his wife, Halyna, became U.S. citizens last summer. They are the parents of three children: Yuriy, 10, Anna, 6, and Sophia, 1 month.

Priest fears for relatives in Ukraine
The family has many relatives living in Ukraine, but the priest requested that they not be identified out of concern for their safety.

“I really have fear for them,” he said.

Many Ukrainians fled warfare, genocide, famine and persecution in the former Soviet Union. Now conflict has swept the region again.

“This church was a place where we would welcome and try to help those refugees who had to leave everything behind,” Shevchuk said. “Oftentimes, they would just have a suitcase when they came. It was a lot of traumatic experience for many of those folks.”

Is peaceful resolution over Ukraine possible? Take look at Vladimir Putin's viewpoint

Ukrainian immigrants founded the Akron parish in 1915. The church, which serves 60 to 70 families, has many second- and third-generation Ukrainians as well as worshippers who aren’t of Ukrainian descent but “love the way we worship God,” Shevchuk said.

A parishioner prays during a special rosary for peace in Ukraine on Thursday at Holy Ghost Ukrainian Catholic Church in Akron.
KAREN SCHIELY, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL
The priest is fluent in English, Ukrainian and Russian. All services are celebrated in English, and the congregation no longer considers itself an ethnic parish, he said.

“We try to be open to new times and challenges,” the priest said.

And these times are challenging.

Shevchuk shared a note from Bishop Bohdan J. Danylo, eparch at St. Josaphat in Parma, who asked pastors to take up a collection to aid the people of Ukraine as they defend their territory, history, language, customs and honor.

“Our most powerful weapon is our ability to pray,” Danylo wrote. “To pray for the successful defense of all that is good, right and holy. To pray for the safety of the Ukrainian people and nation. To ask the Most Holy Mother of God to intercede on their behalf, to drape her mantle (veil) over them, to show us once again that she is our protector as she has so often in the past.”

What will Russia do next?
Shevchuk worries that Russia will attempt to depose Ukraine’s democratically elected leaders and install a puppet government. He fears that religious leaders and Ukrainian patriots will be among those targeted.

Russian President Vladimir Putin might be in for a surprise, though.

“What Putin is not expecting is that the Ukrainians are fighting back,” Shevchuk said. “There will be a bloodshed. I’ll let you know that Ukrainians won’t give up easily. Those soldiers will fight him today defending Ukraine. A lot of their grandparents were persecuted and suffered for Ukraine.”

This isn’t just a war against one nation, he said. If Putin can impose his will on Ukraine, what might he do next?

“Ultimately, who knows, Russia may say, ‘Well, give us back Alaska,’ ” Shevchuk said.

He said a lot of Ukrainians believe their country was duped into giving up its nuclear weapons after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. At the time, the nation had the world’s third-largest arsenal.

Ukraine destroyed its weapons with the understanding that its territorial sovereignty was guaranteed in a 1994 Budapest agreement signed by the United States, Great Britain and Russia, he said.

“A lot of Ukrainian people feel tricked,” he said. “They appreciate a lot what the U.S. is doing, but a lot of people say that it’s not enough. There should be tougher sanctions, not only from the U.S., to stop the aggression.”

Diplomacy clearly has failed Ukraine, he said. Humanity needs to unite to restore the peace.

“It’s a time for the entire community of people to fight off the evil powers,” he said.

Shevchuk is quick to point out that he is not a politician.

“I’m a simple priest,” he said.

“Father Sal” is doing what he can do. He is putting his trust in God and he is praying — just like his father asked.

The pastor has been flooded with text messages and phone calls from concerned people voicing their support. He has appreciated hearing from other Roman Catholic priests who have expressed solidarity with the Ukrainian church.

“That’s kind of what we need to know,” he said. “We are here but we are not alone. People still care and are willing to stand by our side.”

Mark J. Price can be reached at [email protected].

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

My pleasure, Graham! I watched this way back then the year before matriculating there. Sorry I couldn't get the embedded link to work properly, but big ups to Bao for fixing that for me which will hopefully get more folks to check it out.

-Ian

I've been thinking a lot about that clip. It's great for the historical perspective, but I think it's a bit dated since it's from 2014. To fit the modern day it concentrates too much on "power" as being army movements, whereas since then we've seen how Russian intelligence can actively move to destabalise countries.

It could be argued that Russian elites put Trump in power in the US. They fund the Conservative party in the UK, and wash their dirty money through London, so directly fund Boris, and funded Vote Leave in 2015, they paid for Brexit, plus influence the electorate with social media posts. They cause fuel panics in places like Poland, and it's the same accounts that post anti-EU and anti-vax messages. And the same old saps in every country believe this lie of FREEDOM they are sold by the Russian elites. Ironic.

Hmm, I don't agree. First, we are currently dealing with a military situation, so I don't think it makes sense to minimize that aspect even if we absolutely shouldn't ignore the complexity of the roots of the problem. Second, the good professor emphasizes that the military factor (NATO) is only one of three issues and he makes it clear that you can't separate the economic and political (EU) from the military (NATO) when thinking about this problem.

And, I guess you could make the argument that Trump won because of the Russians, but I certainly don't buy that. It was a very minor factor here, despite what the corporate Dems wanted to argue. Over here, the conservative media does exactly the same things the Russian bots do (re: vaccines, anti-EU, etc...).

IMO, this could have been avoided if the US and NATO simply stated that Ukraine would not be joining NATO (which they were not going to do any time soon anyway). Instead, the US wouldn't budge and kept on with its established expansionist and imperialist policies despite decades of warnings that the expansion of NATO to Russia's borders was a red line. Of course, none of this in any way excuses Putin's illegal and extremely dangerous actions. But, if we don't recognize how we got here...well.

And, of course, cyberwarfare and other softer forms of conflict have accelerated, but I don't think it takes away from the lecture which gets to the heart of the genealogy of the issue (although, it really should go back to 1918 and the White Army).

[windwalker]

IMO, this could have been avoided if the US and NATO simply stated that Ukraine would not be joining NATO (which they were not going to do any time soon anyway).

Instead, the US wouldn't budge and kept on with its established expansionist and imperialist policies despite decades of warnings that the expansion of NATO to Russia's borders was a red line.

Agree

From reading it seems like Russia had been formally asking for this for a while but was ignored.



What happened in Korea comes to mind, with the north acting as a buffer for China,
the US stationed troops there as a trigger should things change.

Some should take some time to read, what the US did to n-Korea during the war....
Might help in understanding their view point of the US....

The 'limited war'

Without even using such "novel weapons" -- although napalm was very new -- the air war leveled North Korea and killed millions of civilians.
North Koreans tell you that for three years they faced a daily threat of being burned with napalm: "
You couldn't escape it," one told me in 1981.
By 1952 just about everything in northern and central Korea had been completely leveled.
What was left of the population survived in caves.

Was in Korea when it still had martial law,,,,late 70s

Considering whats going on now,,,asking n-Korea to give up it's nuclear capability for
US "agreements".

not gonna happen

[Quigga]

Killing people isn't fun..... at least they say so, I obviously have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.....

[Bao]

IMO, this could have been avoided if the US and NATO simply stated that Ukraine would not be joining NATO (which they were not going to do any time soon anyway). Instead, the US wouldn't budge and kept on with its established expansionist and imperialist policies despite decades of warnings that the expansion of NATO to Russia's borders was a red line. Of course, none of this in any way excuses Putin's illegal and extremely dangerous actions. But, if we don't recognize how we got here...well.

Yup. USA and NATO will never budge, not an inch. And here is the crux. NATO decided already 2016 to put their weapons right next to Russia’s border. It’s sad, but Putin’s only choice is to get rid of the USA’s fascist neo nazi puppet regime in Ukraine to not make that happen.

….

Even the Atlantic Council admits that it’s a Neo Nazi regime that has put Ukraine into lot of turmoil one problems

Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence (And No, RT Didn’t Write This Headline)

It sounds like the stuff of Kremlin propaganda, but it’s not. Last week Hromadske Radio revealed that Ukraine’s Ministry of Youth and Sports is funding the neo-Nazi group C14 to promote “national patriotic education projects” in the country. On June 8, the Ministry announced that it will award C14 a little less than $17,000 for a children’s camp. It also awarded funds to Holosiyiv Hideout and Educational Assembly, both of which have links to the far-right. The revelation represents a dangerous example of law enforcement tacitly accepting or even encouraging the increasing lawlessness of far-right groups willing to use violence against those they don’t like.

Read more: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... -headline/

And here is more about how the USA put this government into practice:

https://youtu.be/MFkIbAP-SJc


….