political exchanges on the war in Ukraine

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political exchanges on the war in Ukraine

Postby Dmitri on Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:21 pm

That old KGB fucker is really pushing the limits of 'crazy'... -loco- -argh- :'(

"That is why it is so important to achieve all the goals of the special military operation. To push back the borders that threaten our country as far as possible, even if they are the borders of Poland," said Medvedev.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 023-02-24/
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby origami_itto on Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:46 pm

Dmitri wrote:That old KGB fucker is really pushing the limits of 'crazy'... -loco- -argh- :'(

"That is why it is so important to achieve all the goals of the special military operation. To push back the borders that threaten our country as far as possible, even if they are the borders of Poland," said Medvedev.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 023-02-24/


There's this person known as the Kent state gun girl.

She goes to protests and shit talks the protestors. Like calls them fat and stupid and disgusting.

When they get angry and yell at her, she says "you know I carry (a gun) , right?"

This reminds me of that.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Kong Bao Long on Sat Sep 30, 2023 9:18 am

Some food for thought

The United States is currently $31 trillion in dept... take away children and seniors (because they don't pay taxes) it's close to $200k that the average tax payers is in debt. That debt will carry over to the next generation and the next.

The estimated (it's estimated because the Gov doesn't really know) illegal immigrant population is between 25-30 mill. (and growing) That is roughly the population of the Mid West. NY state alone will pay over a billion for housing illegal immigrants this year. (you have health care and schooling to add to this)

The United States has given 76 billion in aid to Ukraine
The EU only 35 billion.

Does the USA really have the funds for this...? isn't there another border that demands our true attention?

In 1990 The US guaranteed Russia they would not expand NATO eastward. Putin is many things... But first he's a Russian and if we reverse the situation Using Mexico and the US.. we would have done the same. Example: Mexico is corrupt (just like Ukraine) if one day Mexico radically reduced trade with us, then we see them trading with Russia (like they traded with us) then we see Soviet military tech, Soviet infrastructure and Soviet Military advisors. then we see the Mexican government trying to adopt a Soviet form of Government... What would be the US response?

Part of the reason why the US is so in debt is every year teh US out spends every nation when it comes to defense. Our biggest rival is China and we spent 10 times more on defense than they do. There are roughly 1100 counties in the world.. The US has a presence in 850 of them. China can rattle a saber... the USA cocks and locks. Big difference! If you doubt this... Just look Elon Musks Star link and China's stance on it (it's clear China doesn't have anything near this, because there is a mad dash for them to get something like Star link in the sky's... Know and understand the US have been throwing military tech in space since the 1980s.

The war in the middle east (instead of establishing a Marshall plan, where you go to the Iraqis and the Afghanistan's and have them re-build their infrastructure) was used as a 20yr Tax payer funded Research and Development project by the Iron Triangle. Defense contractors and politicians got filthy rich.

The Russian's appeared to be oblivious to the military Tech that was being developed. Now one sees the reason(s) why the US has not updated it's BMT since the 1990s. It's clear the BMT has lost its capability to be the principle influencer on the battlefield. (the Russian doctrine since the end of WWII has been based around the BMT) The West, sending first gen tech (we are on 3rd gen) has decimated the Soviets army. Over 250k in casualties, a terrible loss, which forced them to withhold in reserve any and all critical front line units and equipment's and to look for replacements.
The Wager Group was thrown in the meat grinder... suffered heavy casualties and revolted.

IMO... The US Iron Triangle is at it again... looking at this conflict with massive $$$$$ in their eyes! (Go back and look at the stocks of American defense contractors... they shot up exponentially a month before the Russian Invasion... Obviously the 1% knew what Putin was going to do before he acted.

Putin and the Russian military believe they are fighting Western aggression.. if you want to call him crazy and tyrannical...etc... that's fits... I personally don't see turning the eastern half of Ukraine into a WWI no man's land, while making the bank accounts of Raytheon, Boing, General Dynamics bank even more fatter!

just my 2 cents
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby origami_itto on Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:24 am

I'll never understand why the right wing has such a hard on for carrying Putin's water.

Stop repeating Putin's propaganda, please.

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was ... arge-nato/

Why does Putin consider NATO a threat? Because it impedes his ability to throw his weight around, full stop. NATO poses no threat to Russian sovereignty.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:41 pm

origami_itto wrote:Stop repeating Putin's propaganda, please.
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was ... arge-nato/


There's no propaganda. It's true that there was no written agreement (as NATO would have cared if there was). But there was indeed repeated promises and they are well documented. If NATO didn't promise "to not expand one inch towards Russia", Soviet would not have agreed to the unification of Germany and it would not have dissolved the Warsaw Pact. Simple as that.

In fact, there has been made promises at least 12 times on various occasions, all documented. Here are a few of them:

On January 31, 1990, German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher Hans-Dietrich Genscher, speaking in Tutzing (West Germany), put forward the condition: “quid pro quo” — there will be no expansion of NATO territory to the East, closer to the borders of the Soviet Union, if the Soviets allow German reunification.

Speaking at the evangelical Academy in Tutzing, Genscher turned to NATO with a demand to confirm: “whatever happens in the Warsaw Pact countries, there will be no expansion of NATO territory to the east, closer to the borders of the Soviet Union.”

On February 2, 1990, Genscher made it clear that “NATO will not expand its territorial presence either in the GDR or anywhere else in Eastern Europe.” This statement of Genscher is confirmed by the archival documents of the US Department of State. You'll find it online on history.state.gov. Genscher also

At the talks in Moscow on February 7–9, 1990, D. Baker repeatedly linked the reunification of Germany with the commitment not to expand NATO. For example, on February 9, 1990, Baker promised Eduard Amvrosievich Shevardnadze “explicit guarantees that the jurisdiction of NATO forces would not move to the east.”

On February 9, 1990, Baker promised that “there will be no expansion of NATO’s jurisdiction by an inch to the east” at a meeting with Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev.

On February 10, 1990, Genscher said to E.A. Shevardnadze that “NATO will not expand to the East. This is also confirmed a described in Journal of Cold War Studies, Vol. 14 (2012)

In 1991 Secretary-General Manfred Werner made the straightforward statement: “Personally, I and the NATO Council are against the expansion of the alliance. This view is shared by 13 of the 16 NATO members. I will speak against the NATO membership of Poland and Ro- mania to the leaders of these countries, as I have already delivered to the leaders of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. ... The isolation of the USSR from the European community should not be allowed”

So it's you my friend who is repeating NATO's and the US's propaganda that there were no promises.

Why does Putin consider NATO a threat? Because it impedes his ability to throw his weight around, full stop.


There is nothing pointing at Putin has expansionist or imperialist ambitions. Neither historical or that he suddenly woke up one morning with the bright idea of taking Ukraine. In March 2022, Ukraine had already signed a peace deal with Russia. The USA and UK sabotaged the deal and forced Ukraine to continue making war against Russia. This is confirmed by Israel and Turkey: https://mronline.org/2023/02/07/former- ... eace-deal/

Putin has shown the content of the deal, and again, that the content is true and that it had been signed has been confirmed by Turkey. Ukraine was allowed to keep the whole of Donbas according to the deal. Doesn't sound like expansionism, or does it?

Russia didn't even start launching an attack at Kiev and so far, the civil casualty ratios is far lower than any known historical war. Acc to OHCHR, the confirmed number of civilian is less than 10 000. Every death is obviously tragic and unnecessary, but still, the civilian casualty ratio is a proof by itself that Ru has only focused on military targets and has tried to prevent civilian casualties and collateral damage.

Very different from what the US and NATO have done in their illegal wars, killing millions of civilians.

Ratio of dead soldiers/combatants to dead civilians:

World War I (1914-1918): Approximately 1 to 1.
World War II (1939-1945): Approximately 1 to 3 to 1 to 4, depending on the region and conflict area.
Vietnam War (1955-1975): Approximately 1 to 1.
Bosnian War (1992-1995): Approximately 1 to 1.5 to 1 to 3, depending on the period and area.
Iraq War (2003-2011): varies from 1 to 10 and higher depending on sources and time periods.

Russia – Ukraine (Feb 2022 -->) : 15 and higher to 1, depending on what figures of casualties you want to believe.

NATO poses no threat to Russian sovereignty.


Now, is NATO a threat against Russia? Let's look at facts:

First: NATO has nothing to do in east Europe, on the paper it is a defense organisation aimed at protecting the North Atlantic region. Even the famous article 5 is directly connected to the threat of the same region. How does NATO in Ukraine help protecting the North Atlantic region???

Second: Putin said in 2008 that Ukraine is the limit for NATO expansion. "No means No". So apparently he thought NATO was a threat.

Third: Stoltenberg and Merkel has admitted that NATO has armed and trained Ukraine since 2014.

Fourth: In 2019, NATO Secreraty-General Jens Stoltenberg announced A BIG increase in defence spending for the European NATO countries, that would, by the end of 2024, reach $400 billion. Stoltenberg said: “This is unprecedented progress and it is making NATO stronger.”

So look at it from Russia's perspective as Kong Bao Long suggested.


BTW, here is an interest clip with Zelensky's friend and former advisor predicting Russia's invasion:

https://odysee.com/@Manoeuvrer:6/Aresto ... Zelensky:2


Anyway, I understand that people don't like Russia and have hard to understand or accept its actions. That's understandable. However, even hating Russia doesn't mean you need to support the ultranationalist government in Ukraine. The world's most corrupt government, a government that doesn't care about its people and has not worked for its people's will since 2014, but rather worked straight against it.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby origami_itto on Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:53 pm

If it ain't in writing, it isn't a promise.

Again... what threat does NATO pose to a peaceful Russia?
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:22 pm

origami_itto wrote:If it ain't in writing, it isn't a promise.


Well, according to US law it certainly is a promise. Not only a promise, but it is in fact a contract. According to US law contract doesn't have to be in writing. A valid oral contract consists of an offer, usually a price or a promise for some action to be taken, and an acceptance; an agreement accepting the offer.

There need not be more information involved in an oral contract than just the offer and the acceptance of that offer. And as I pointed out, the contract the US made has been confirmed and verified many times.

But again, you should consider how Russia views this contract.

Again... what threat does NATO pose to a peaceful Russia?


Do you really not understand or do you just like playing dumb?

What threat did NATO defend itself or any member against Serbia, Afghanistan, Syria or Libya? What reason would NATO have to expand if not preparing a war against Russia?

NATO has violated its own rules many times and shown itself being an aggressive organisation.

So if you watch the US and NATOs actions, why would Russia NOT find an expansion towards their border an aggression? Why would they not consider that NATO planned to wage war against Russia?

Read about the Cuba crisis if you don't understand. Didn't Cuba have the right to host Russian missiles and nuclear weapons? Why then did the US react so hard? What threat did Cuba pose to a peaceful US?
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:31 pm

origami_itto wrote:If it ain't in writing, it isn't a promise.


Again... what threat does NATO pose to a peaceful Russia?


Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.”








The Minsk agreements


Were signed, didn't seem to matter much....

““we want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine.




The problem soon to be solved...The US does not suffer for what it does in other parts of the world in maintaining its imperialism feeling geographically insulated by its location, having survived the second world war with little to no industrial impacts on its infrastructure...

All coming to an end as the rest of the world catches up, able to address the imperialism exerted by the US.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:48 pm

windwalker wrote:The Minsk agreements

Were signed, didn't seem to matter much....


Porochenko has stated that he never intended to comply with them. Merkel admitted in an interview that they were an excuse to arm and train Ukraine.

Of course, mainstream media tries to hide the facts and blame Putin.

All of this time, from 2014 and onwards Ukraine continued shelling residential areas in Donbas with weapons financed and supplied by NATO. And obviously mainstream media will never touch that from early February 2022 until this date today, Ukraine has been shelling residential buildings, schools, hospitals, churches and civilian infrastructure in Donbas about every single day. No, it's still not propaganda. If you look at Telegram and other free social media. you can find a lot of pictures, videos, interviews etc confirming the daily reporting from Russia, DPR and LPR.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:53 pm

OSCE reports reveal that Ukraine began heavily increasing its artillery strikes against the Donbas republics 8 days before Russia launched its “special military operation”.
Explosions documented by the OSCE increased from 76 on February 15th, to 316 on February 16th, to 654 on February 17th, and to 1,413 on February 18th.
If you look closely into the OSCE maps, you will see that the vast majority of explosions happened inside the Russian separatist side of the ceasefire line. So in conclusion, Ukraine started the shelling. You can find all of this in OSCE's reportings:

Feb 14: 174 ceasefire violations, 41 explosions
Feb 15: 153 ceasefire violations, 76 explosions
Feb 16: 509 ceasefire violations, 316 explosions
Feb 17: 870 ceasefire violations, 654 explosions
Feb 18: 1,566 ceasefire violations, 1,413 explosions
Feb 19-20: 3,231 ceasefire violations, 2,026 explosions
Feb 21: 1,927 ceasefire violations, 1,481 explosions
Feb 21: Russia recognizes independence of Donetsk and Luhansk from Ukraine.
Feb 22: 1,710 ceasefire violations, 1,420 explosions
Feb 24: Russia launches “special military operation”.

Donetsk had asked Russia to help them. In fact they had already started evacuation. Pictures with long rows of people outside the banks and the machines to take out their money amongst other things confirms that this is true.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:13 pm

People or countries who feel they are protected / insulated, from their actions often do things or say things like this.


Ukraine can use German missiles to attack Russia – Bundestag
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Steve James on Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:26 pm

Well, just afa Russia's goals, if it was to reduce NATO influence, it's failed. More European and Scandinavian countries have asked for membership now. Finland is particularly important. They didn't ask to join before the invasion. The reason there are new NATO members is that they fear Russia will do the same to them.

Afa US taxes, I don't have 200K of debt, and I consider myself quite average. But, even if I was a million in debt, there's no reason to believe that any of the money that doesn't go to Ukraine would come to me or anything that was socially beneficial -like education or healthcare, and there's no way any of it would be used to reduce consumer debt. I'd love it if it were the case, but the lawmakers against Ukraine aid are also against domestic programs that fight poverty. Anyway, that's besides the point.

It can be called a military operation, but civilians and grain (food) are being attacked directly, not collaterally. The grain isn't even primarily for Ukrainians. This suggests that military operations aren't so successful. Imo, that's because Ukrainians are fighting for Ukraine, not for NATO, and are doing so the way Americans would if they were invaded. The fact is that the conflict will be protracted for years. The areas involved are vast, and it would take hundreds of thousands of people to occupy it.

I heard that Lavrov siad that it could be over if Ukraine agrees to return to where they were pre-invasion. I don't know if that rumor is true, but I'm not sure Ukraine would accept.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:49 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, just afa Russia's goals, if it was to reduce NATO influence, it's failed. More European and Scandinavian countries have asked for membership now. Finland is particularly important. They didn't ask to join before the invasion.

The reason there are new NATO members is that they fear Russia will do the same to them.




:o Russia, Russia, Russia

might want to look over NATO's track record

1994 NATO bombing intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina, part of Operation Deny Flight.
1995 NATO bombing intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Operation Deliberate Force.
1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (Serbia) as part of the Kosovo War.
1999 NATO bombing of Albanian refugees near Gjakova.

What is this fear about Russia about ? ;D

NATO was never designed to be a backstop for other countries sovereignty and integral ambitions...

It was designed as a military alliance used coordinate forces between different militaries against the Warsaw Pact..

Not as a political tool used achieve political ends. NATO should've been disbanded when the Warsaw pact was dissolved...
When the war ends what should have happened long ago,,,will be corrected...NATO will be disbanded...by its own members
Wanting to maintain their sovereignty....




New Map Shows Just How Bad Ukraine War Is Going
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby Steve James on Sat Sep 30, 2023 5:05 pm

NATO is a product of the Cold War. Sure, there should have been no NATO, just as there shouldn't have been a divided Germany. There were European countries that didn't want to belong to the USSR, just as Poland doesn't want to be a part of Russia. Still, as I said, the result is that NATO is now larger and has more members.

Afa how badly the war is going, in the end the Ukrainians are fighting at home. All the Russian soldiers want to go home.
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Re: Help for Ukrainians

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 30, 2023 5:26 pm

Steve James wrote: All the Russian soldiers want to go home.



How do you know all Russian soldiers want to go home... :P

"According to Defense Ministry records, more than 231,000 people have signed enlistment contracts between January 1 and today, August 3,” Medvedev noted at the council meeting in Moscow. "

on the other hand

British defense chief wants to send UK troops to Ukraine


Lets hope this happens....let everyone join the party....

would make it end sooner..
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