beef consumption threatening rainforest

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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 7:31 pm

Giles: wrote

Well, yes, but what's the relevance here? However chimpanzees pic'n'mix their diet, it doesn't lead to them destroying the jungle they live in.


;D

It's funny....

The relevance is that some animals do eat meat.
They don't have anybody trying to tell them what to eat or how to eat.

There are animals that do effect the environment they live in, changing it so much that it can no longer support them.

Humans another type of animal, have an impact on the environment which as it changes will tend to moderate the population.
War is something else that tends to moderate human populations

Most wars tend to be over resources....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4WHsbtHjEU

Deforestation fires are surging in the Amazon, eliminating more square kilometers of rainforest this year than they have since 2009.

In the Brazilian Amazon, fires are a common means of clearing the land -- land that is worth five times more without the forest than with the forest --
for cattle and soy fields.

Brazil is the world’s leading exporter of beef and soy, but there’s also a high demand for these goods domestically.


"soy fields". ;D

who knew.

So maybe some one should tell the Brazilians, to stop eating beef,,,and soy :o

maybe its the soy consumption,,,yep better stop eating soy


There's always regime change, thats the ticket....tell them to change their government, or NATO and the US will.

The US does it for oil, why not for rainforest :P
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed May 04, 2022 10:42 pm

soy fields, which are growing industrial soy, not edamame. They are growing soy beans to make soy oil to cook french fries, cook beef in, or may other horrible shelf stable things that people in other countries will eat. It's not sustainable. Neither is massive beef consumption. Eat local, or at least intelligently, most of the time.

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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 04, 2022 11:00 pm

origami_itto wrote:And they are cutting down the trees because.....


Isn't is obvious...but here is my point of view:
1. That is how the Western mindset operates to create power centres..
2. They steal land from indigenous peoples then create ranches to be owned by those who have money to buy and sell "product'
3. These ranches become power centres of influence increasing the monetary and influence of these new landowners...
4. These landowners become part of the political landscape over time and land use suffers with chemical agrricultural as a base, which increase soil erosion
5. The loss of trees, forest, and fauna of the Amazon increases climate change to the extent that these areas will flood major parts of Northern South AMerica causing disasters never seen before on the continent.
6. CO2 increase in the atmosphere (Amazon) will cuase extremes in temperature meaning fires where they never existed before
7. The indigenous people have lost their natural habitat and they create a burden on the state for support since their homelands have been taken away from them with no compensation for their stolen lands.
8. Currently, the US AMerican Wester states are a template for what will happen in the Amazon along wiht recent wildfires in Siberia! WHo wouda thought.... ???

SIberia battle heatwave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXd4gDV0HBo

SIberia fires larger than all of EU fires combined
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXd4gDV0HBo

Amazon fires....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAQZvlaNF4s

Beef is just a byproduct of those behaviours that can be used and is used as a commodity for now...
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby vadaga on Thu May 05, 2022 1:03 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:SNIP They are growing soy beans to make soy oil to cook french fries, cook beef in, or may other horrible shelf stable things that people in other countries will eat. It's not sustainable. SNIP



also animal feed and soy milk FWIW.

If you buy Alpro, that is brazillian soybeans. They have a little 'proterra' certification on the carton meaning that the soybeans are farmed on land that cannot have been deforested after 2008. https://www.proterrafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ProTerra-Standard-V4.1_EN-2.pdf

If you buy salmon in the EU (Norway is the main producer for all markets other than UK, inside of UK it is Scotland) it is likely fed a diet of containing around 20% non-GMO brazillian soybeans, usually also Proterra certified.

If you eat chicken, there is a lot of soy in chicken feed as well... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/14/feed-supplier-to-uk-farm-animals-still-linked-to-amazon-deforestation

@Origami_itto- FWIW it's not just a 'western' mindset- it's a product of the global economy at this point- 70%+ of Brazillian soybeans is going to China, again for animal feed (pigs and chickens)
Last edited by vadaga on Thu May 05, 2022 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby windwalker on Thu May 05, 2022 1:30 am

lets see what happens....
betting nothing will but ya never know...

Everything, including the world, eventually finds
It’s own balance.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby Giles on Thu May 05, 2022 5:04 am

windwalker wrote:Everything, including the world, eventually finds
It’s own balance.


This is true. In the long term, our planet and life on it shows incredible resilience and diversity.

However. Paleontological, geological and historical research reveals that when a regional or global ecosystem gets depleted/damaged/destroyed beyond a tipping point, recovery and restoration of this balance - often with new interactions, new species - can require some time. Assuming the damage is relatively local and there are intact ecosystem areas not too far away to 'reseed', then still generations or centuries. The more severe and widespread the ecological damage, the longer the recovery or 'new balance'. Then we're quickly talking about thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. 'Life' will surely find a way, but the rich and wonderful ecosystems that we still have (mostly, more or less) may well change beyond recognition, with ecological poverty in the 'wilderness years'. Apart from the general ethical considerations of us (the human race) screwing up much of the world and extinguishing other species, this also means sawing at the branch we ourselves are sitting on. Humans in some form will probably hang on, even if things go really bad. Maybe. But in the meantime, it would mean so much disruption to the foundations of our societies and economies in so many ways that we'd very probably experience a new 'Dark Age', quite possibly with a population level to match. Just with better technology for those who can still access it. Or maybe not even that, because in the longer term, advanced technology also requires a broad social and economic base. And that, unavoidably, requires functioning ecoystems that can continually regenerate and as a by-product let us grow our food, breathe decent air etc.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby Quigga on Thu May 05, 2022 5:20 am

I'm just waiting 5-10 years until the first step in a chain of events happen

Plankton dying off, ocean streams and weather changing. Once the first domino falls change is going to come rather quickly, whether we want it or not with governments being dismantled, Yakuza type structures rising everywhere and both the dark and light side living much closer together than now - how many people have to be killed each year to sustain the lifestyle of one person considered to be in the top 30-40%?

We were all born guilty.

Some persons in history said to place all of their guilt and blame upon them, because this person can deal better with it. Providing possible solutions

The changes we need to make to prevent this from happening seem next to impossible, maybe certainly impossible if one relies on organic growth of our societal systems

We may as well just start talking about terraforming Earth

I don't know and I am afraid
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby everything on Thu May 05, 2022 8:26 am

I don’t think consumers will easily change, but reducing beef consumption by 20% would help.

It’s happening, just not at that rate.

But going to cleaner energy would help more.

Also happening, but slowly.

I drive gas guzzlers and eat meat and buy crap, so I can’t preach at anyone.

As Michio Kaku was saying,
Most species go extinct.
Are we different enough to prevent our own?
Maybe yes, maybe no?
Certainly we cause it on others.
Last edited by everything on Thu May 05, 2022 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby Quigga on Thu May 05, 2022 9:22 am

Just 20% reduction would help? I mean yeah obviously... Better to try and fail than to not try at all. At least that's often the case.

Cleaner energy would be nuclear for me. We can deal with radioactive trash in the ground later. Besides I've heard it's not all that bad which totally makes me an expert

But building a reactor in a Tsunami zone is just less than ideal

Going by that logic I can't preach either

How many species have caused their own extinction? Predators and prey naturally balance each other out in biological systems
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby everything on Thu May 05, 2022 9:47 am

not an expert, either. this was in the news yesterday.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... ng%20study.

20% reduction .... 50% less deforestation by 2050.
50% reduction ... 80% less deforestation by 2050....
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby everything on Thu May 05, 2022 9:48 am

nuclear

get musk or bezos to send the waste to the dark side of the moon. :D ;D
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby Tom on Thu May 05, 2022 10:00 am

everything wrote:
nuclear

get musk or bezos to send the waste to the dark side of the moon. :D ;D


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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby windwalker on Thu May 05, 2022 10:05 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAifu7lu8TU

Richard Wrangham, is a biological anthropologist at Harvard, specializing in the study of primates and the evolution of violence, sex, cooking, and culture. He’s also a MacArthur fellow—the so-called “genius grant”—and the author of books like
'The Goodness Paradox: The Strange Relationship Between Virtue and Violence in Human Evolution' and
'Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence.'



Intersting clip, explores a question of

"do female apes trade "sex" for meat". ;D

Of course that doesn't happen in human societies... ;)

In general explores a lot of behavioral traits thought to be
similar between chimpanzees and humans.


52:56

Talks about how chimpanzees kill other troops expanding their territory gaining the resources...
and the amount of time they spend feeding due to their diet.

Analogous to humans, able to shorten this time due to dietary changes, more "meat" the proclivity to use fire for cooking…
allowing humans to develop outside of the time requirements looking for and eating food.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNWBkkGJXE
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 05, 2022 10:36 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby everything on Thu May 05, 2022 10:37 am

Tom wrote:
everything wrote:
nuclear

get musk or bezos to send the waste to the dark side of the moon. :D ;D


I'm no jimmy (only jimmy is jimmy), but . . .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLOth-BuCNY


Excellent attempt at a "Jimmy" reply.... ;D
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Re: beef consumption threatening rainforest

Postby D_Glenn on Wed May 11, 2022 7:00 am

A bigger problem, imo, is tearing down the rainforests in order to have more land to plant sugarcane for environmentally friendly ethanol fuel :(

And the US buys ethanol fuel from Brazil.

And the US is promoting more ethanol. So more Rainforest will be coming down.

.
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