the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:49 am**

Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman is trying to answer a big question: Do we experience the world as it really is ... or as we need it to be? In this ever so slightly mind-blowing talk, he ponders how our minds construct reality for us.

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:52 am**

It depends on what reality is. If we don't see it, how do we know? Is reality different for a blind person?

Imo, there's a difference between the reality of physics and the reality created by human mental perception. Some have argued that the human mind creates physical reality. But, why would human minds have more of an effect than a dog's mind? Wouldn't the human mind have to existed prior to reality? I dunno.

I tend to believe that the human mind has nothing to do with physical reality. I.e., "Reality" is what's not a creation of the human mind.

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:40 am**

Yes, reality exists whether we see it or not, but his argument is that we don't see it, and that in his simulations, individuals that DO perceive reality more clearly are less likely to pass on their genetics.

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:19 am**

Imo, if "we" don't see "it," then no one does. Someone who does see a different reality must also see the reality we "see." What those people see, especially if it's a genetic ability, is something others will never. But, in terms of evolution, it hasn't been a necessary adaptation. Still, reality is totally independent of human perception. Our brains are simply making enough sense of what we perceive in order to allow us to survive.

Would you say that our ancestors could perceive more than we can?

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:41 am**

Steve James wrote:Imo, if "we" don't see "it," then no one does. Someone who does see a different reality must also see the reality we "see." What those people see, especially if it's a genetic ability, is something others will never. But, in terms of evolution, it hasn't been a necessary adaptation. Still, reality is totally independent of human perception. Our brains are simply making enough sense of what we perceive in order to allow us to survive.

Would you say that our ancestors could perceive more than we can?

Depending on how far back you go, no, maybe?
Don't know, no data for it, only guesses. Have you watched the video? It may have been a follow up podcast where he starts getting in pan psychism and the consciousness of particles and the limitations of interfacing with intelligences that follow different patterns.

The thesis is not that our observation creates reality. It's that our only interface with reality is through a construct informed by sense data, memory, and imagination, and that accurate perception of reality itself is less important than being attuned to the particular species and environmental fitness tests.

He suggests that species evolve "hacks" to help them more readily pass fitness tests by enabling them to ignore the vast amounts of data that doesn't pertain to the business of procreating.

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:25 am**

It's that our only interface with reality is through a construct informed by sense data, memory, and imagination, and that accurate perception of reality itself is less important than being attuned to the particular species and environmental fitness tests.

I agree 100% with that. I don't believe different people perceive "reality" better, but that's a philosophical pov. I can't generalize about what everyone perceives. It's like asking whether qi is real.

Anyway, it wasn't the premise. I agree that it's all in our heads -whether it's called "conscious reality" or something else.

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:01 pm**

Rarely!

My great friend Rumi has stated the following
1. Many of the faults you see in others are your own nature reflected in them!
2. We don't see thigs as they are, we see them as we are (Anais NIn, the erotic writer), a paraphrse from Rumi

Projection is a human condition and it has, and always will result in chaos for ALL! Amen

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:35 pm**

" A Zen Master and his three disciples were once meditating by the side of a river.

There was a flag (on a pole) nearby that was fluttering in a strong wind.

The novice visibly disturbed remarked, “The flag is flapping.”

The junior monk smiled on hearing this, and with his eyes closed, replied,
“The wind is flapping.”

The senior monk on hearing this, retorts, “The mind is flapping.”

The Zen master visibly annoyed: “Mouths are flapping.”

"三个人正在观察一面旗帜在微风中飘扬：一个人说，旗帜在移动。
第二个人说，风在动。
第三个人说，你们都错了，是你们的心在动。"

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:32 pm**

Just listened to this one a few days ago; that was excellent, FWIW

https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo

Posted: **Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:22 am**

I think Kant got it more or less right. There is an objective reality (even if we can't be sure), but our brains interpret it so we can make sense of it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:13 am**

Dmitri wrote:Just listened to this one a few days ago; that was excellent, FWIW

https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo

Yep that's the one that lead to the second one on the Youtube Algorithm

Posted: **Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:15 am**

Also:

the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

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Re: Do we see reality as it is?