sway with me

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Re: sway with me

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:02 pm

origami_itto wrote:I mean when the skill gap is that large this is sort of expected, right?


true. I've been there myself at times. I have been surprised at how easy it was with some people. sometimes it was a combination of things, at times it was meant to be unco-operative but friendly and there was big gaps in experience level.

It's easy to see how Adam plays on that and he sets things up. I think he often cherry pick people and it's hardly ever unco-operative.
well, never, as I've never seen it.

and the kicker is none of his students have ever shown they can do any of these things with their peers and equals.. in competition or friendly meets ups - without looking just like everyone else. so no special sauce. but listen (read on youtube for example) to people raving about touching him at seminars and you would think Adam is the second coming.

it's bordering on a cult now.

I think some of his methods, if improperly followed, can make the students much more tense and easy to manipulate.


maybe, but he uses ' set ups' and people follow guidelines on how to interact. He is plenty skilled - at what he does - I can see that. But is this what people should be looking to get highly skilled at ?

no, in my opinion. time is valuable, so we should all choose carefully... you can be really good at techniques when someone isn't resisting and feeding you. but that's like stage one. it's to learn some technique. It has next to no bearing on getting it done on a resisting opponent. It really is akin to learning to swim on dry land and thinking it has anything to do with swimming in the water. it just doesn't work like that.

but going back to your first point, even if there is resistance - it's hardly impressive tossing around someone you have every right to - in other words a mismatch, whether experience, size etc.

I've seen some good stuff from him at times, but he's chosen a dubious path and uses manipulative methods to sell a product.this clip is simply marketing for the course. and It's clear his selling point has become chi.. when it's not that at all.. that's basically a scam right there. and it should be called out.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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George

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Re: sway with me

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:08 pm

windwalker wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I mean when the skill gap is that large this is sort of expected, right?
I think some of his methods, if improperly followed, can make the students much more tense and easy to manipulate.


Why would one assume the skill gap is so large or that the people have no idea what they'er looking for or expect ?

As is often the case those with the most experience and highest level of skill stick around understanding the type of skill as teacher Wang did when
he met his teacher...


People finding the skill, usually have a good time as those in the clip did finding something completely unexpected confronting their skepticism they might've had..
It's fun, and funny for them...people have a good time, understanding its about the skill

Adams, skill has improved ...He's doing things now, in accordance with his development at this time...Changing the way he demos
Like his clear explanations and approach...


it's more often about experience. tai chi is often too different for most people to easily get their heads around.
his seminars attract a lot of inexperienced people now - often from other styles of martial arts.

I just watched a testimony clip from some experienced guy - in some other style with a funny sounding name, saying how he was a fighter and all. but it was clear he had very little comprehension of what went on.. and also spoke about the difficulty of the training methods, after going on about the hard training he had done.

I get it, initial exposure to IMA methods can seem counter intuitive and the skills used can seem like magic.
it's kinda not fair to lead people on that way
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: sway with me

Postby Giles on Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:46 am

Cloudz, I agree on just about all points. There is a lot of skill in what Mizner does (that doesn't mean I regard him as a master), but his marketing/enterprise channels this into tuishou as an end in itself. Plus all the mystification and set-ups. At least in what he teaches in these seminars and in his 'qi' films.

Purely with regard to teaching methodology, irrespective of my skill level: When teaching tuishou, especially to my own students, I emphasize softness and relaxation and use of the body as opposed to the arms (hugely important!), but as soon as possible I establish a continuum between tuishou in the normal sense and dealing with an attacker who steps in to strike you. Also this in a 'relaxed' and 'controlled' manner, but essentially realistic in terms of space, steps, angles, ballistic paths etc. I also let my students push or strike me, by offering them 'open goals' from time to time. I think this is essential if students are really going to learn how to apply their tai chi in self-defence.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
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Re: sway with me

Postby cloudz on Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:38 am

100% Giles, bang on.

Check this out guys, a very timely article by Coach Chris (middleway), some of you may receive his newsletter too.
Love his work, and a great guy to boot - super skilled and dedicated and been around these arts for a long time.

https://www.martialbody.com/Articles/Bl ... artialBody
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George

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Re: sway with me

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:08 am

interesting read

from the link

Let me re-iterate, internal skill should feel unstoppable - None of the good teachers I met, nor their students would ask you to grab a wrist and unbalance you with some soft touch, none of them would put up with a student on tip toes making crazy noises – every one of them would run you over like a truck.

That is the real internal skill.


Seems confused...What is described are his "perception" in accordance with "his" understanding and experience at the time

Shouldn’t the question be not what teachers can do to him, but if he can cause the same reaction in others as that demonstrated by the teachers.


Some clips demonstrating what Adam demonstrates in his clips.


The "soft touch" is not about the "touch" never was although it is a medium or focal point by which what is being used works or in some cases does not...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fIucL-Q4vo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU&t=37s

Let me re-iterate, internal skill should feel unstoppable


Quite right, although what it acts on, is very interesting.


some of it out lined

一般理解,所謂勁兒,是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上,再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後,就會逐漸擴大增長起來,變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的,
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直,在技擊方面用起來,因身形動
作大,運動量較強,因此影響內氣的波動,易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。

One theory to develop Jin (refined force) is to concentrate Shen, Yi and Qi in one point, and then use this point to drive the movements. After a long time of practice, the movements get bigger and carry a powerful force. Since this force is from diligent practice, it’s called the 後天 (After Heaven) "awkward" force.

The force is powerful, strong and heavy, react and change slowly, done with straight and direct movements.


"]Let me re-iterate, internal skill should feel unstoppable"


as described in the link


Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.

This type of Jin comes from the mixing of Qi and Yi. Its nature is Qi, and requires Empty, “Transparent,” and “dispersed”, and not gathered. This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as 先天(“Pre Heaven”) Jin.

這種勁兒與姿勢的關係,是利用身形手勢,給這種勁兒開出去路,指出方向,使它能自然暢通
,輸出無阻。這種用法只是在應敵時一現用之,切勿在練拳時隨意輸散,以免致傷身體,影響
養生。在運用時不要把它直接貫穿到某個姿勢上去,而產生勁端。否則在應敵時遇到強力就會
使內氣返回本身,致傷身體。

Relating this type of Jin to your movement: when you move, you let the Jin to go out, directing its path, allowing it to flow out unimpeded.

wang-yongquan-writings-on-yang-style-tai-chi-chuan

What is illustrated by the two masters, and Adam causing the reactions shown in the clips.


It's different....

BTW in Hawaii had a good friend many, many yrs back teaching and working with some of teachers there who trained directly under
Koichi Tohei (藤平光一, Tōhei Kōichi) group..Aikido with Ki

Image


It was quite different, from the feeling of the taiji group I practied with at the time based on the Dong /Tung style

At the end of the day, people should be clear about what they'er seeking working on,,,I feel most are.... having agency to do so....
Don't quite get how it's about marketing, not knowing or understanding , ect. ect...

Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.


or

"]Let me re-iterate, internal skill should feel unstoppable"


Think people understand and able to make their own choices
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:37 am, edited 6 times in total.
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