A New Theory of Consciousness

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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:28 am

Dmitri wrote:
origami_itto wrote:There is no way the finishing configuration of the gas molecules can be predicted from the start conditions.

That's just a dumb molecule floating through space bumping into things

That we can't compute it has no relevance to the universe and how things are. Every one of those bumps of that molecule obeys the laws of physics, and it can't help but interact with its immediate surroundings according to those laws. As are all those other molecules around it, and others around them, and so on, ad infinitum. (I'm leaving out what all those molecules consist of, the "quantum field", etc., etc., etc.)
Everything, everything is interconnected and interdependent.

Yes, the laws of physics, which account for entropy and randomness, such as that exhibited by gasses.

It's not a matter of understanding the complexity. It's a matter of starting with identical conditions and engaging in identical processes and achieving different results.

And that's just gas, human consciousness is far more complex. Quantum mechanics is more complex still.

So sure one can be fatalist and surrender all responsibility to the initial conditions of the universe, and that may well work out for you. Right on.

That doesn't change the fact that we are aware of our decisions and behavior and have opinions and feelings about it and can change our future responses to the same stimuli.

Could be a massive delusion. Recent nobel prize winning research suggests a concrete deterministic reality is more of a delusion. A shared hallucination that only exists in our minds.

Let's perhaps just say, as suggested by Plato's cave, that some might rise above the delusion and mechanistic determinism and experience the full spectrum of existence, while others are forever condemned to take the shadows on the wall as their reality.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby Steve James on Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:04 am

why is the discussion about having a free will or not even important?


In our daily lives, whether free-will is real or an illusion doesn't matter because humans base all our societies on the presumption that it exists. From free will develops the concept of responsibility (to the self and others, and in religious terms, specifically to God. This goes directly back to the story of Adam and Eve. We've been screwed because they used their free will to disobey. Of course, people disagree; but, there's always a reason why laws are created. We assume criminals have free will and intent).

Why can we talk to ourselves? Why do we have a voice in our head?


Some people who've theorized about consciousness suggest that people weren't always able to distinguish the voices in their heads from spirits. There have been, and still are, some people who claim spirits speak to them. Whether they're delusional or bullshitting is another story. Anyway, our whole species normally has the ability to distinguish. Now, can other primates do the same? They dream too.

The thing about evolution is that it's agreed that dna mutates, and that has -up until very recently- has had nothing to do with human will. "Why" does dna mutate, sometimes with disastrous results for the offspring?
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby Quigga on Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:48 am

Well people live and act as if free will exists. Whether or not it actually does is another matter then...

I suppose if we were to base our societies on individual people being either inherently good or evil, then there would be a lot more injustice. But we wouldn't see it as that then, but as justice. Hm.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby Quigga on Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:53 am

I guess a lot simply depends on your world view and culture.

Dunno why DNA mutates. Imo if you take a materialistic viewpoint, humans are such a sophisticated machinery it's a wonder it works at all the way it does and doesn't break down MORE often.

Dogs dream too. If you don't make spirits a part of your world view, there's no point in talking about that. Each their own.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:50 am

Quigga wrote:I guess a lot simply depends on your world view and culture.

Dunno why DNA mutates. Imo if you take a materialistic viewpoint, humans are such a sophisticated machinery it's a wonder it works at all the way it does and doesn't break down MORE often.

Dogs dream too. If you don't make spirits a part of your world view, there's no point in talking about that. Each their own.


maybe its by design, question might be who or what alters the design...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUOhG_c4Go&t=743s

9:28 repurposed genomes
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:00 am

This is new?

since many years ago we have had the well known scientific experiment that suggests we don't have free will - that our unconscious makes our decisions before we are aware of them.

a theory about 'why' consciousness is needed is barely anything at all. is it 'needed' - no. that human consciousness
(the self aware, reflective part) happened and evolved to higher levels - that we can observe - around us eg. in animals. Sure; why?

the reasoning given can apply to any number of other species.
you may ask why the sun shines, but you won't get an answer to that either.

it's just as likely we ate a bunch of cool mushrooms once upon a time, and it literally blew our minds.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:13 am

cloudz wrote:.
you may ask why the sun shines, but you won't get an answer to that either.




The mechanics are pretty well established.
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:34 am

the mechanics ?
like the physics and all that.

that's how.(in my book)

yea.... that's not what I meant.
why. it's a deeper question, maybe not a good one.

but ok, I can see how it might not be clear.

the point was; you may as well ask WHY does anything exist (and do anything) at all.
look forward to the incoming glib physics lesson
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby everything on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:17 am

I prefer the mushroom theory.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:20 am

cloudz wrote:the mechanics ?
like the physics and all that.

that's how.(in my book)

yea.... that's not what I meant.
why. it's a deeper question, maybe not a good one.

but ok, I can see how it might not be clear.

the point was; you may as well ask WHY does anything exist (and do anything) at all.
look forward to the incoming glib physics lesson


That infers it needs a why. The sun shining is the direct result of mechanistic processes. It doesn't need a why, it exists because the universe exists and follows rules. Nobody's opinion about it changes anything.

You can navel gaze about justifying existence but for me existence is justification enough for itself.

Why? We're processes resolving. We've got a little wiggle room to flex our will
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:12 am

What we see isn't necessarily what we get. All the balls are the same color.

Image
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby cloudz on Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:26 am

origami_itto wrote:
That infers it needs a why. The sun shining is the direct result of mechanistic processes. It doesn't need a why, it exists because the universe exists and follows rules. Nobody's opinion about it changes anything.


The inference came from the Opening Post, it's not mine... I was questioning that inference myself. What you said applies to the subject (consciousness) I was responding to. And it isn't something I disagree with.

You can navel gaze about justifying existence but for me existence is justification enough for itself.


ok... was I doing that. I don't think I was trying to 'justify' anything or 'naval gazing' for that matter.
But thank you for those characterizations.

Why? We're processes resolving. We've got a little wiggle room to flex our will



ok.. I see that you were involved in a philosophical discussion with Steve and Dimitri. I didn't read it, I just came in and gave my comment (opinion) on the OP.

Wasn't so much in the mood for too much philosophy right now, and in particular with people that seem to want to argue with an imaginary voice rather than to things I actually say. Having said that, i don't find anything to disagree with in that statement; if, that is, you wanting to justify existence for yourself it's more than adequate and fine. I think any personal belief can be justified by it working (for you).

But at the same time let's not confuse justification for anything more than that - a personal subjective truth. We can say everything is a process; resolving.. Is it revelatory?
No, it's stating the obvious I think. By that I just mean it doesn't reveal cause or reason and my reference for 'why?' is that. so you didn't answer your own why, you gave another how. Again, that fine, if that is why for you and that works. Great.

Maybe there's cause or reason beyond 'what is', maybe not. There doesn't have to be, which doesn't mean there isn't. My personal opinion is it comes down to mystery.. and how comfortable with that you are, or not. Or how comfortable you can become. So that's the naval gazing out the way.

Good luck to you fella. I did pick up where you said about your condition, scanning the text today, and you have my sympathy for that (not that you need it). mushrooms mate - best medication for that. seriously.

If you can, get some golden teacher.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:47 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:06 am

cloudz wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
That infers it needs a why. The sun shining is the direct result of mechanistic processes. It doesn't need a why, it exists because the universe exists and follows rules. Nobody's opinion about it changes anything.


The inference came from the Opening Post, it's not mine... I was questioning that inference myself. What you said applies to the subject (consciousness) I was responding to. And it isn't something I disagree with.

You can navel gaze about justifying existence but for me existence is justification enough for itself.


ok... was I doing that. I don't think I was trying to 'justify' anything or 'naval gazing' for that matter.
But thank you for those characterizations.

Why? We're processes resolving. We've got a little wiggle room to flex our will



ok.. I see that you were involved in a philosophical discussion with Steve and Dimitri. I didn't read it, I just came in and gave my comment (opinion) on the OP.

Wasn't so much in the mood for too much philosophy right now, and in particular with people that seem to want to argue with an imaginary voice rather than to things I actually say. Having said that, i don't find anything to disagree with in that statement; if, that is, you wanting to justify existence for yourself it's more than adequate and fine. I think any personal belief can be justified by it working (for you).

But at the same time let's not confuse justification for anything more than that - a personal subjective truth. We can say everything is a process; resolving.. Is it revelatory?
No, it's stating the obvious I think. By that I just mean it doesn't reveal cause or reason and my reference for 'why?' is that. so you didn't answer your own why, you gave another how. Again, that fine, if that is why for you and that works. Great.

Maybe there's cause or reason beyond 'what is', maybe not. There doesn't have to be, which doesn't mean there isn't. My personal opinion is it comes down to mystery.. and how comfortable with that you are, or not. Or how comfortable you can become. So that's the naval gazing out the way.

Good luck to you fella. I did pick up where you said about your condition, scanning the text today, and you have my sympathy for that (not that you need it). mushrooms mate - best medication for that. seriously.

If you can, get some golden teacher.


You know I'm very open lol, probably too much so, so not quite sure exactly which bit of misfortune you're referring to.
But yeah I'm doing alright.
Old wife divorced. New wife married.
Old job lost, new job starting. Named my rate.
Kept the house.
Medical marijuana replaced my NSAIDs
Feeling a lot less bipolar in my new life situation.
Taijiquan improving steadily, daily.

Honestly, broheem, if i was any happier I'd have to be twins.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby cloudz on Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:21 pm

origami_itto wrote:
cloudz wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
That infers it needs a why. The sun shining is the direct result of mechanistic processes. It doesn't need a why, it exists because the universe exists and follows rules. Nobody's opinion about it changes anything.


The inference came from the Opening Post, it's not mine... I was questioning that inference myself. What you said applies to the subject (consciousness) I was responding to. And it isn't something I disagree with.

You can navel gaze about justifying existence but for me existence is justification enough for itself.


ok... was I doing that. I don't think I was trying to 'justify' anything or 'naval gazing' for that matter.
But thank you for those characterizations.

Why? We're processes resolving. We've got a little wiggle room to flex our will



ok.. I see that you were involved in a philosophical discussion with Steve and Dimitri. I didn't read it, I just came in and gave my comment (opinion) on the OP.

Wasn't so much in the mood for too much philosophy right now, and in particular with people that seem to want to argue with an imaginary voice rather than to things I actually say. Having said that, i don't find anything to disagree with in that statement; if, that is, you wanting to justify existence for yourself it's more than adequate and fine. I think any personal belief can be justified by it working (for you).

But at the same time let's not confuse justification for anything more than that - a personal subjective truth. We can say everything is a process; resolving.. Is it revelatory?
No, it's stating the obvious I think. By that I just mean it doesn't reveal cause or reason and my reference for 'why?' is that. so you didn't answer your own why, you gave another how. Again, that fine, if that is why for you and that works. Great.

Maybe there's cause or reason beyond 'what is', maybe not. There doesn't have to be, which doesn't mean there isn't. My personal opinion is it comes down to mystery.. and how comfortable with that you are, or not. Or how comfortable you can become. So that's the naval gazing out the way.

Good luck to you fella. I did pick up where you said about your condition, scanning the text today, and you have my sympathy for that (not that you need it). mushrooms mate - best medication for that. seriously.

If you can, get some golden teacher.


You know I'm very open lol, probably too much so, so not quite sure exactly which bit of misfortune you're referring to.
But yeah I'm doing alright.
Old wife divorced. New wife married.
Old job lost, new job starting. Named my rate.
Kept the house.
Medical marijuana replaced my NSAIDs
Feeling a lot less bipolar in my new life situation.
Taijiquan improving steadily, daily.

Honestly, broheem, if i was any happier I'd have to be twins.


ok cool, somewhere you mentioned being diagnosed with manic depression and being on meds for it ircc. the pharma meds can't be great, if weed helps, that's a boon. I've done enough of that to know it's not the best for my general mood; much happier off it. I think I've just gotten a bit too old for it now.
but yea; good to hear life's good, sweet. Having struggled a bit at times myself on that score, no worries. some of us like to share more than others. nothing wrong with unloading a bit.

I know a guy who has micro dosed mushrooms and reckons it's the bomb.. and the research for it helping with mental health is solid. I tried golden teacher once and had one of the best days ever. and the mind benefit lasts a while. Tai chi practice was off the scale; it's all I wanted to do. No joke; the upgrade that week when i next trained with a partner was totally real. it was someone (teacher) i was seeing regularly for a good while privately which made it all the more measurable, and I don't know if it was me just training more and deeper than normal that week or two because of the vibe or the actual feeling and insight off the psychedelic effect.. hard to explain, but damn it was really something and it was a pretty small dose, no where near a hero dose. Am planning on doing it again in the not too distant future. yolo ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Theory of Consciousness

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:41 pm

I can't quote that deep on my tablet here.

I don't know what anybody else thinks but taijiquan on shrooms equals very yes.

I usually prepare a tea from five dry grams using lemon juice to break the psilocybin into psilocin.

It's a little weaker than eating them but still a strong trip that comes on fast. From dose to sleep is about 9 hours.

So the first half hour is drinking and waiting, next hour and a half is the ride to the peak. This is where most of the emotional work and introspection happens. I often weep. Music is transcendent. I call this phase meeting myself. I try to take an honest inventory and get in touch with gratitude. Figure out what's working and what needs attention.

You can do that sober, sure... What i find is that its like my mind gets tangled like spaghetti and this helps me pull the strands out and lay them down in order of length and girth and color.

I've found that it helps improve the results of meditation overall, not just during the trip. During the trip it's almost like a scaffold on a rock face. The path is clear and obvious and easy. I can use that to pick out landmarks and set anchors and markers for when i come back unassisted.

And the taijiquan... By 2-3 hours into the trip the threat of nausea has passed and i can start moving around.

I feel so in touch with my body and aware of the various flows of energy. I will do forms and drills and free movement for hours and it's definitely the best practice I've experienced. So much information gained in those sessions.

As far as the bipolar goes, it's a frustrating mess. The symptoms are crippling depression slowly changing into supercharged charisma and back over months. If you're not on top of the introspection then it just seems like everything is beyond awesome but you still crave more.

At this stage i know my cycles and warning signs. It's a physical chemical process. As long as i have an adultier adult in my life that I can't charm into bad decisions with too much repercussion I'm fine. Otherwise I'm like a superhero whose power is mischief. I'm hoping that with the right partner i can build a life where i don't need pharma to cope.

I mean I've told this board WAY TOO MUCH about my journey over the years but I mean.. Fuck it, this is me. Let's push hands and drink tea and make love to beautiful women.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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